Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

It has probably been discussed before, but anyway:

I'm asking because I watched Greg Raymer at one of the WCOOP tournaments and he pretty much said that he always makes it 2.7xBB to go because "it's just the right amount" or so.
Now Dan Harrington advises you to make different opening raises:
Raise less with big pairs (because you don't mind action), raise more with middle pairs or high cards (to discourage action). Also consider position.
And vary the bets so that your opponents can't read you.

Of course, if you always raise 2.7xBB like Raymer does, your opponents can't read you anyway.

I assume it's simply because Raymer is a much more aggressive player and therefore doesn't mind action even with his weaker hands.

Would you agree?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

It has a lot to do with position and how many are already in the pot. If 5 people have already limped in and you want to raise on the button you are silly to raise 2.7 BB. The point is, you want to mix it up so no one has a read on you. I think what Raymer means is if he is first to open the betting, he will raise that amount, whereas Daniel will mix it up a lot more. Maybe you will be lucky enough to get an answer from Raymer himself.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

Yeah I meant first to enter the pot only. Sorry for not making that clear.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

I usually raise MORE than 3x in early stages to cut down on implied pot odds of my opponents.

I'll raise around 3x in the mid-stages of the tourney

I'll usually do 2.5x later on if that has been sufficient to get enough folds.

In reality, you can raise any amount you want at any time, just be aware of why you do it and what you are hoping to accomplish with your raise.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

i definitely vary based on the variables (position, stack sizes, table image, my image, cards, etc)

and i think by so doing you can really confuse villains on hands you may have. for instance - i very often raise aa or kk from mp to 4 to 5 times bb. why? cus many read this as ak or a mid pair. on the contrary i will usually, but not always, make mid pair bets to 2.5 times as it somewhat disguises them against a thinking opponent. so, the net is yes i believe varying your bet can be very beneficial

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

There's two schools of thought on this....

Dan Harrington states that you should vary your raises so that villains can't catch on.

Barry Greenstein says you should always raise the same amount so that villains can't catch on.

Two very successful players with differing ideas and strategies. Can you say which one is right and which is wrong?

I can't.

Personally, I prescribe to the Barry school of thought that playing your hands in a consistent manner regardless of the holding makes it most difficult. Even using randomness to mixup your play can often be influenced by the subconscious mind, so is it really that random?

I think the real answer is going to be different for a lot of people. There really isn't a correct answer here, if you ask me.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

Playing the same raise amount for a standard raise saves you a decision PF if you raise it every time. Artificially or not, varying your raise sizes can be a tell.

The amount literally doesn't matter. I think Raymer advocates 2.7 because he's risking 2.7 to win 1.5, and that allows him to open from any position with at least 20% of hands. Maybe my math's a bit off, but it looks plausible.

I've gone deep in tournaments, playing TAGgish, opening top 15% or so for 3BB, dropping to 2.5BB with antes.

I've also gone deep in tournaments opening top 30-35% of hands playing LAGgy and not deviating from minraising. And exploiting irriated TAGs with 3-bets for stacks with JJ+, AKs. Because they didn't give your minraise credit at first, they won't give the 3-bet the credit that they should.

And some advocate a sliding scale, open 2.5BB early, 3BB in MP, 3.5-4BB in LP.

FWIW, what I find to be one truism, for sure, is when raising limpers, you should always have your xBB + 1BB for each limper.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

Ok, so in a hypothetical, you're now seated at a table with Greenstein, Harrington and Raymer.

Do you honestly think you have a chance raising 2x or 3x every time you are first in a pot? Probably not a chance in heck. You have to deviate simply to make it harder for these better players to read you. But that is not to say that you vary simply by varying the size of the raise. You also vary by not raising, or changing the hands that you enter the pots with.

But in another scenario where you're seated with 3 Dickey Donks there is hardly a need to use so much deception with an opening raise, or with slowplays or the range of hands that you play. Why bother using tricks when they aren't needed to get it done?

Also, just watching Raymer or any other player for a short period of time in a single tournament is a very small sample and is probably not indicative of his overall play.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

I'm a bit too predictable when it comes to things like varying my raises.

I've found that raising 3x BB is generally the sweet spot. Enough to make a player with a weak hand fold. Yet, it's enough to get hands that you beat to call as well.

I like Barry Greenstein's method better. Harrington says that sometimes you have to make a slightly incorrect decision with your raising preflop. But I tend to feel uncomfortable like that. Barry's method fits me a bit better. Varying raises can give off a tell even if you don't think it is.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

i raise 3xbb for the first 2 hrs usually, then about 2.3xbb from then on

one reason i raise so small is because i am raising a [censored]-ton of pots and with a smaller raise i don't need to take down as high a % of hands pf to make my steal +EV. also, cbets are smaller with the smaller pot size

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

I started with the Phil Gordon school of thought, raise the same everytime that way you're opponent can't pick up a tell on you. While I don't see any wrong with this, I prefer Harrington's advice better.

The advantages of varying opening raises. If you're married to the idea I'm 3xBB everytime I open you can't take into account the opponents' playing style to act behind you or their stack sizes. One of the best aspects of varying raise sizes pf is the deception it offers you postflop. If I raise 5xBB with 8-7s from MP and you call with A-K how can you not love a 8,A,7 flop? You're likely putting me on a big PP and feel your Aces are ahead. Another HUGE benefit is being able to minraise with air to steal the blinds. If you have minraised a few times with premium hands your opponents have to give you some respect when you minraise. That reason alone is why I prefer it to raising the same amount each time.

The downside is sticking your neck out occasionally raising to 5xBB with SCs and risking getting multiple callers with AA on a minraise. Overall I like the extra flexibility varying opening raises gives you.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

As tournaments progress I begin to vary my raises less and raise a smaller amount for two reasons:

The average standard of play improves, so players will not make mistakes of the same size.

The average player becomes tighter, thus my raises are more successful at this lower level. I start out raising 4-5BB with raising hands, when blinds move up, my raise moves up in nominal terms, but down in terms of effective BB until, with the blinds at 10% of a starting stack, they tend to be a nice round number in the realm of 2.5-2.3BB (i.e. 400 when BB=150, 500 when BB=200, 700 when BB=300)

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

Buy in is a huge factor me. Low level entry 33 on down I like to open pretty big 4-5 BB with big pairs because so many donks want to steal behind you and large % of the time you will get a donk push. Especially early. Higher level tournies 109+ I like to vary with the flow of the table..

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

I like to vary them, but not is stereotypical or readable ways. Partly based on what I want to accomplish, but partly at random. I think there is an advantage in varying at random in that opponents may misread you thinking they pick up a tell. I find this approach effective in HU SNGs.

Re: Varying the size of your opening raises - useful or waste of time?
 

Again, it's not so much the size of the raise but the rationale behind the raise.

- Are you raising to drive people out (e.g., maybe you have AT and a raise will get an AJ to fold)?

- Are you raising to build a pot in the event that your hand holds up (e.g., KQs, QJs)?

- Are you raising to prevent a multi-way pot to give you AA or KK a better chance of holding up?

Etc, etc, etc.

As long as there is a method to your madness, and it is working in the present scenario, then it is difficult to find fault with it.

But just deciding to vary your raises because an author says it is better, or to always raise 3x because you observed a top player doing it regularly, well I'm sorry but these are not valid rationales.

Each of us as a player, has to think about what we are doing and ensure that we know why we are doing it, and why we think it is valid for a certain situation.

This does a couple of things:
- It (hopefully) prevents us from being predictable.
- It keeps us conscious of what we are doing and constantly observant of whether what we are doing is working or not working in the present environment.