my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

OK so I don't post here usually, bear with me.

Legally stop recognizing all forms of marriage. The tax/financial benefits will be available to any two adults, they fill out a "civil union"/"household income" form (same as they do now), pay their $40 or whatever, and it's settled. As far as the government's concerned, the churches/temples/mosques lack the legal authority to provide that tax benefit.

So then the churches/temples/mosques can marry whoever they want to, or be as bigoted/biased as they want, not marry gays, etc... there will be no "perversion of the sanctity of marriage" or whatever... and at the same time, the government will be giving the same rights to everyone.

I mean... it isn't just unfair to gay people, the tax benefits of marriage. It's unfair to ugly, lonely people too.

Doesn't this just seem like the ideal solution? Remove the right of religious institutions to legally marry people, it gives them the authority to marry/notmarry whoever they want, the government is treating everybody equally... win/win, no?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

It's a good idea but it'll never happen while there's a government. Homophobes like the fact that they can force other people to pay to enforce their personal views.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

If this happened, I would immediately become civilly united with some poor college student or homeless person so I could save a ton on my taxes. And so would every other single person.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this happened, I would immediately become civilly united with some poor college student or homeless person so I could save a ton on my taxes. And so would every other single person.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what? it's unfair to reward married people and punish the people too ugly/miserable to find someone to marry. just abolish the tax benefits to marriage altogether then.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this happened, I would immediately become civilly united with some poor college student or homeless person so I could save a ton on my taxes. And so would every other single person.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between this and getting married to one is what exactly?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this happened, I would immediately become civilly united with some poor college student or homeless person so I could save a ton on my taxes. And so would every other single person.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what? it's unfair to reward married people and punish the people too ugly/miserable to find someone to marry. just abolish the tax benefits to marriage altogether then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Supporting a family of 2+ on a given income is different than supporting a single person on the same income. It makes perfect sense to take less tax from an income (or combined income) that supports at least 2 people than from the same income for one person.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Supporting a family of 2+ on a given income is different than supporting a single person on the same income. It makes perfect sense to take less tax from an income (or combined income) that supports at least 2 people than from the same income for one person.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if people are roommates, so what? they're supporting a household of 2. most married couples each have jobs/incomes. i fail to see how this is an argument agaisnt what i'm proposing.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just abolish the tax benefits to marriage altogether then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Supporting a family of 2+ on a given income is different than supporting a single person on the same income. It makes perfect sense to take less tax from an income (or combined income) that supports at least 2 people than from the same income for one person.

[/ QUOTE ]

From each according to his ability to each according to his need.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

welcome mbilly

This has got to be the one of the simplest illustrations of how stupid and selfish the general public is.

Marriage is a contract between 2 people nothing more nothing less. The government involvement should reflect this and only be involved via the courts when contract negotiations are required (divorce). In fact this could also easily be done through civil arbitration w/ no government involvement at all.

The problem comes when people get selfish and ignorant. Bible thumpers want to use the government to negate some peoples contract rights. Gays want to use the government to force people to do things their way. Both of these ideas are idiotic and wrongheaded.
If a gay couple wants to get married it is none of the churches business. If a church wont marry a gay couple then they should go somewhere else.

cliff notes: people are Dbags

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
welcome mbilly

This has got to be the one of the simplest illustrations of how stupid and selfish the general public is.

Marriage is a contract between 2 people nothing more nothing less. The government involvement should reflect this and only be involved via the courts when contract negotiations are required (divorce). In fact this could also easily be done through civil arbitration w/ no government involvement at all.

The problem comes when people get selfish and ignorant. Bible thumpers want to use the government to negate some peoples contract rights. Gays want to use the government to force people to do things their way. Both of these ideas are idiotic and wrongheaded.
If a gay couple wants to get married it is none of the churches business. If a church wont marry a gay couple then they should go somewhere else.

cliff notes: people are Dbags

[/ QUOTE ]

Solution : no government that Dbags can gain control of.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Tax breaks for married people are so they can provide for their children.

If you're gay and want to commit yourself to another gay person for the rest of your life, that's fine... good for you. But you're not having any children and as such, shouldn't be tapping into a benefit designed for people who do.

As for the married people without children? I guess they're getting a break. But the government can't be bothered to make sure the people filing for tax refunds are even legal citizens, much less legal citizens with children... so I wouldnt expect the tax laws to change any time soon.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tax breaks for married people are so they can provide for their children.

If you're gay and want to commit yourself to another gay person for the rest of your life, that's fine... good for you. But you're not having any children and as such, shouldn't be tapping into a benefit designed for people who do.

As for the married people without children? I guess they're getting a break. But the government can't be bothered to make sure the people filing for tax refunds are even legal citizens, much less legal citizens with children... so I wouldnt expect the tax laws to change any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Living together is energy efficient and should be rewarded for all. And I'm sure married people get tax breaks in most countries even if they have no children.

And gay couples should be allowed to adopt on par with other couples and hence be able to raise children too. And they can already have children in other ways (surrogates or from previous relationships).

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

I believe elwood posted a similar solution awhile back. Seems ok to me, haven't read the other posts yet.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Living together is energy efficient and should be rewarded for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 2 people living together is energy efficient, aren't they already rewarded by not have to spend as much on AC and heating?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this happened, I would immediately become civilly united with some poor college student or homeless person so I could save a ton on my taxes. And so would every other single person.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what? it's unfair to reward married people and punish the people too ugly/miserable to find someone to marry. just abolish the tax benefits to marriage altogether then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Supporting a family of 2+ on a given income is different than supporting a single person on the same income. It makes perfect sense to take less tax from an income (or combined income) that supports at least 2 people than from the same income for one person.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why does the government give extra tax breaks to a family of 2+ then? It's already recognized in the tax system regarding what you said and yes I'm married.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Why not get rid of marriage, unions, tax-breaks for cohabitation altogether?

natedogg

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not get rid of marriage, unions, tax-breaks for cohabitation altogether?

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be ok. How about regarding the resolution of community property issues? I suppose people could just enter into specific contracts with each other if they decide to share the same household and decide to act as a "team" in acquiring wealth and such.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tax breaks for married people are so they can provide for their children.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what are tax breaks for dependents?

[ QUOTE ]
If you're gay and want to commit yourself to another gay person for the rest of your life, that's fine... good for you. But you're not having any children and as such, shouldn't be tapping into a benefit designed for people who do.[ QUOTE ]


Gay people can and do have children. And they get the dependent deduction.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the married people without children? I guess they're getting a break. But the government can't be bothered to make sure the people filing for tax refunds are even legal citizens, much less legal citizens with children... so I wouldnt expect the tax laws to change any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so far off in the weeds it's hilarious. "Well, that's the law, so STFU!"

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Living together is energy efficient and should be rewarded for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's efficient, aren't they saving money already?

EDIT: OH NOES MY PONY TOO SLOW

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Living together is energy efficient and should be rewarded for all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's efficient, aren't they saving money already?

EDIT: OH NOES MY PONY TOO SLOW

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that point isn't dreadfully important to me either way. My main point was that the other poster seemed to think gay couples are unable to raise children, which ofcourse isn't true.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Society has a big stake in reproductively viable family formation. Just investigate the social (in)security Ponzi scheme demographics if you doubt this. There's every reason to reward future baby citizens and the adults that do the breeding. Gays are free riders and deserve nothing. These are simple princilpes that are historically obvious over all of civilization.

If you're interested in liberalized gay marriage laws and falling birth rates, investigate Holland over the past 25 years.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not get rid of marriage, unions, tax-breaks for cohabitation altogether?

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not just get rid of taxes all together? Solved

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Society has a big stake in reproductively viable family formation. Just investigate the social (in)security Ponzi scheme demographics if you doubt this. There's every reason to reward future baby citizens and the adults that do the breeding. Gays are free riders and deserve nothing. These are simple princilpes that are historically obvious over all of civilization.

If you're interested in liberalized gay marriage laws and falling birth rates, investigate Holland over the past 25 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

This suffers from the EXACT SAME failure of imagination and myopia as your "atheists are breeding themselves to extinction" argument. Its comical that they are both supported by the same mistaken premise, i.e. that there is only one way to get babies and only one way to make atheists.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Inthedark:

Are you claiming more people turn gay if we allow gays to marry? Or are you claiming that gays that aren't allowed to marry have more children than those who can?

lol

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]

Inthedark:

Are you claiming more people turn gay if we allow gays to marry? Or are you claiming that gays that aren't allowed to marry have more children than those who can?

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Get back to me after you learn to read and reason.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Let me guess: You have expressed similar solid arguments for why certain cultures should not mix. Fear deceives.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]

Let me guess: You have expressed similar solid arguments for why certain cultures should not mix. Fear deceives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, looks like we've got a good little democrat here. Welcome to the forum.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Let me guess: You have expressed similar solid arguments for why certain cultures should not mix. Fear deceives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, looks like we've got a good little democrat here. Welcome to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I don't support statist politics but I can see from my comments in this thread why you would assume I am a democrat.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Society has a big stake in reproductively viable family formation. Just investigate the social (in)security Ponzi scheme demographics if you doubt this. There's every reason to reward future baby citizens and the adults that do the breeding. Gays are free riders and deserve nothing. These are simple princilpes that are historically obvious over all of civilization.

If you're interested in liberalized gay marriage laws and falling birth rates, investigate Holland over the past 25 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

This suffers from the EXACT SAME failure of imagination and myopia as your "atheists are breeding themselves to extinction" argument. Its comical that they are both supported by the same mistaken premise, i.e. that there is only one way to get babies and only one way to make atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you just wanted to inject your view on atheism into another thread, imo.

Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but Man + Man != Baby... same applies for women, no?

The tax breaks for marriage were implemented to promote families and give breaks for those who are raising our next generation. Are you telling me that a gay couple is just as likely to conjure up a baby as a hetero couple is to have one naturally?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
The tax breaks for marriage were implemented to promote families and give breaks for those who are raising our next generation. Are you telling me that a gay couple is just as likely to conjure up a baby as a hetero couple is to have one naturally?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's saying that the tax incentives don't convert gays to heterosexuality or vice versa. People don't pick sexual partners based on tax incentives.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, he's saying that the tax incentives don't convert gays to heterosexuality or vice versa. People don't pick sexual partners based on tax incentives.

[/ QUOTE ]

And? What does that have to do with whether or not gays should get the tax benefits afforded to married people?

They don't fall into the category of people whom those tax breaks were designed to help. So why are we once again being pressured to legislate homosexuality into relevance?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not get rid of marriage, unions, tax-breaks for cohabitation altogether?

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not just get rid of income taxes all together? Solved

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo Bongo! WINNAR!

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Years ago I heard Bill Mahr say the same thing about getting rid of marriage all together on his TV show. That's why I still watch his show sometimes when I get the chance, because occasionally he's right on.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
And? What does that have to do with whether or not gays should get the tax benefits afforded to married people?

[/ QUOTE ]

The "and" is that on the one hand you are saying the tax benefits change human behaviour ("ZOMG JUST LOOK AT HOLLAND AND THE GHEYS!!!11!") and on the other hand you admit they do not change human behaviour, you just like taking money from people you don't like and giving it to people you do like.

[ QUOTE ]
They don't fall into the category of people whom those tax breaks were designed to help. So why are we once again being pressured to legislate homosexuality into relevance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you didn't JUST say that they were getting tax money to "help" them, you implied that the flamers are conquering Holland because of the tax incentives.

Edit: I missed where it was that "In The Dark" person talking about Holland - I got confused because you were responding to someone else's response to him. My bad.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

Yeah, that wasn't me.

I don't think the tax/marriage laws are likely to influence the amount of gays one way or another. But a child who grows up with gay parents seems more likely to decide that they feel the same way, imo.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

All,

I have decided that we should keep the status quo on this issue nationally for at least 5 years. If you don't believe that I have the power to do this, then come back here within 5 years if it changes and post same to prove me wrong.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
All,

I have decided that we should keep the status quo on this issue nationally for at least 5 years. If you don't believe that I have the power to do this, then come back here within 5 years if it changes and post same to prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

do I win something because BluffThis! posted in my thread? or do I lose?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All,

I have decided that we should keep the status quo on this issue nationally for at least 5 years. If you don't believe that I have the power to do this, then come back here within 5 years if it changes and post same to prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

do I win something because BluffThis! posted in my thread? or do I lose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone loses.

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that wasn't me.

I don't think the tax/marriage laws are likely to influence the amount of gays one way or another. But a child who grows up with gay parents seems more likely to decide that they feel the same way, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this argument never gets old:

So the only reason you like women is because your mom loves the [censored]?

Re: my solution to the gay marriage argument
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, he's saying that the tax incentives don't convert gays to heterosexuality or vice versa. People don't pick sexual partners based on tax incentives.

[/ QUOTE ]

And? What does that have to do with whether or not gays should get the tax benefits afforded to married people?

They don't fall into the category of people whom those tax breaks were designed to help. So why are we once again being pressured to legislate homosexuality into relevance?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess once you've already accepted "each according to his need" this position isnt that much of a stretch. Good point about fairness and equality being irrelevant.