Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Villain is GoCart_Moe or however he spells it. He's a 17/14 TAG with 66% Cbet percentage over 12k hands. Only history we have at this table is I called his isolation raise with QTs on the button and he c/f a J76 flop.

Basically, I can't see him having KQ+ here because he'd have to fire it on this board against two people. So I think his c/r is retarded and I can't put him on a hand so I shove?

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $366.25
BB: $380.05
UTG: $141.90
MP: $203.60
Hero (CO): $211.85
BTN: $150.75

Pre-Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $7</font>, Hero calls $7, 2 folds, BB calls $5

Flop: ($22) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $48</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $204.85 and is All-In</font>

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Or he could have A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and just not give a [censored].

Whatever he has, you're obv bluffing to a large degree. Plus you really don't have any outs those times he does call. I think that's what makes the difference for me. I don't like this move in this specific situation.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

games is changin' son- the c/r here is not just air anymore

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Presumably if he c-bets 66% of the time, he is checking purrs etc some % of the time (i.e the other 33% is not JUST air.)

You are clearly behind here imo, that said your line is super strong and might fold out KQ/AQ (at least I would fold).

Do you normally bet in this spot on the flop?

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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Presumably if he c-bets 66% of the time, he is checking purrs etc some % of the time (i.e the other 33% is not JUST air.)

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Yeah I agree, but I don't think he checks a queen here pretty much ever due to board textures and the other guy in the pot (forget his stats but he's fishy)

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You are clearly behind here imo, that said your line is super strong and might fold out KQ/AQ (at least I would fold).

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Lol yeah I'm behind. I'm fairly sure of that.

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Do you normally bet in this spot on the flop?

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Yeah, a lot of the time when it's checked to me.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

the problem is, even if he is drawing to say the flsuh, if he has overs too, he is still fave for the hand, and i doubt he is folding.
Even the oesd has overs to ur hand, so u have little equity if called.

I saw this and thought AQhh, K10hh, I think he calls a lot of the time here, and ur toast.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

yeah....this guy hates folding, and he isn't gonna go crazy like this in a multiway pot. I wouldnt even expect him to fold AJ honestly. You're only repping 33/QJ/9T.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

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Why? I likely have the best hand with very little chance to improve.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Don't like and I check flop.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

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I don't see it that way. When MP checks he's so often giving up b/c this ain't the greatest board to cbet into two opponents w/ air.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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I likely have the best hand with very little chance to improve.

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Lol yeah I'm behind. I'm fairly sure of that.

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????

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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I likely have the best hand with very little chance to improve.

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Lol yeah I'm behind. I'm fairly sure of that.

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????

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When he c/rs I'm behind I meant, when it's checked to me I'm prob ahead

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

betting this flop into two people is pretty silly

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Sklansky recommends cr a set in a multiway pot. How do you take a set out of his range?

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Yeah sorry. I didnt realise first one was in reference to betting flop.

I really dont think he will c/r the flop with junk very often at all. I just cannot work out if he does it with hands that call a push. Checking the flop is not condusive to building a pot that wants to play for stacks. C/R is obv super strong normally, so again maybe he doesnt want to get it all in.

That said, you say yoursrelf you normally bet when checked to, so he might know this. Also he might have something like black ace or kings, see that flop 3-handed isnt great, but when BB folds he knows he is good, or even jsust wanted to c/r because it's the play that should shut down the action the best.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

i check flop also, but here if you think he is FOS why not call. shoving is too spewey for my tastes

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

also i would be happy to shove with any draw. your 2 out draw is way too weak. i would rather do it with overs or a gutshot or something

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

calling is clearly awful.

are we hoping to check/check the turns and river and hope our hand holds up?

If OP thinks villian is FOS shoving is way better than calling. I think I still prefer folding to the flop c/r tho.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

I don't really see a TAG player making a move in this spot. He either has top set or AK suited. Betting the flop is not horrible, but you are most likely getting called by one of the two with this texture board. So if you are willing to double barrel a non scary turn, then bet, but i would probably just check flop. For the all in bet, i hate it, you have 20 invested in the pot, have no clue where you are at, so why ship 200 more with no legit read?

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

hyacahhca the flop bet is obviously bad. I agree somewhat that he probably doesn't cr top pair or a set here, and it could be a draw. But I think once he does, he's not folding. So I mean, at best you're flipping against a draw, at worst you're killed against some kind of FPS hand.

Don't like the line at all

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

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i'd be interested to hear the justification for this too.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

damnit, i get mixed up between traz and thac. hate it when that happens.

like when i was a n00b i got mixed up between gildwulf and grimstarr.

also jmann and jmann obviously

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Hate it. Like me, I'm sure other TAG's know c/raises as pfr look fishy. I've been thinking of spots to start using this line w/ strong hands and I'm sure villian has found a spot to do this w/ his strong hand.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

i agree with you that KQ+ is betting this flop, but those are the only hands that this move gets to fold... the hands that he is checkraising this flop with are like 33 (MAYBE JQ), and super strong combo draws

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

I like the flop bet. Tags are pretty much never going to c/c here so you're really only worried about the fishy guy but he folds plenty.

Once he c/r's I'm generally done with the hand but if you've got enough history/meta to think he's fos here I don't mind the shove at all. Much rather have 89 than 77 but w/e.

It really comes down to levels and how often he expects you to bet here, etc. etc.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

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Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

oh and fold, wtf? how can you scrape up some kind of justification for shoving here? i mean if you want to talk theory and say "yeah sometimes he has a draw" then fine but honestly, just fold man

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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Pretty sure betting this flop 3 ways is spew

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i'd be interested to hear the justification for this too.

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i would also liek to hear why the flop bet is bad. at this level, this bet takes down the pot so much,

most of the time, when TAGs check instead of c-betting, their giving up on the pot. if we assume this is the case, we just have to worry about the player in the blinds.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Fancy play syndrome

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Flop bet seems fine, but just fooooold to the c/r, if people wanna play retarded, let them

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

I also like the flop bet. We usually have the best hand, will usually take down the pot, but if we let a turn/river peel off, we almost always have to give up the pot.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

Betting this flop is pretty standard. Your basically HU when the pfr checks and your most likely ahead, so why not just take it down now and get value from draws those times he calls? You also fold out pfr's 88,99,TT's.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

I'm 50/50 on the flop bet, however if I bet it, I like to bet a bit more. The flop could very well have hit your cc range, and on a board this drawy, I like a larger bet.

I absolutely hate the shove however. If guy's clowny enough to C/R a one pair hand on this board, he clearly puts you on air and intends to felt the hand.

Add to the fact that he's a nit, and most nits are much less likely to fold than take a weird line.

I really expect to see a big hand here. AA-JJ/AKs/AQs/QJ/33 and he's not folding any of em.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky recommends cr a set in a multiway pot. How do you take a set out of his range?

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That's also for live 10 handed play where you have 5 callers.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

checking the flop is like looking at the nice gift of $22 that they are trying to give you and saying 'no thanks, i dont like money'.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

I think flop bet is pretty bad. Board is connected enough that one of them is calling you a lot.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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I think flop bet is pretty bad. Board is connected enough that one of them is calling you a lot.

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yeah but it's usually the donkey and you're usually value betting.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

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damnit, i get mixed up between traz and thac. hate it when that happens.

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Then throw terp in there for good measure.

I pretty much hate this line. MAYBE bet the flop. But there's no way Villain *has* to bet a strong hand here reg vs. reg, so it kinda depends, but after the c/r it's a poo fling at best, and you just don't have enough poo handy.

Re: Where I know that he knows that I know.. blah blah blah
 

IMO this is bad.
I never ever bet this flop when checked to me with 77.Just give up to his flop c/r as I just dont see many tags c/r with air at all.