Does Villain owe me money?
 

Playing 2/4 limit in the local casino with an a-hole I've played with a few times before; he's not a casino noob, he knows what he's doing.

Earlier in the night, he loses his buy in, asks for a hold and goes for a walk for half an hour. He comes back to the table on his big blind; the dealer asks if he wants to play, he taps the table, says yes and receives his cards. He then folds on the flop but it turns out he never did have any money behind. His friend wins the pot so no one really complains; again he asks for a hold and takes a walk for half an hour.

So then a-hole sits back down at the table again. Another dealer (a rookie) deals him some cards in EP; on his turn he taps the table and says "raise up to four" and the dealer then asks if he has money behind. A-hole mumbles something that sounds to me like "forty" but he could just be repeating his raise of "four". No one has noticed whether he has actually given any money to a chip runner. I coldcall in SB, flop a set and lead out. A-hole calls, MP raises and action comes back to me where I 3bet. Before a-hole can act, MP asks the dealer if a-hole does indeed have money coming. There's some confusion, the pit is called and, since there has been significant action in the hand and a-hole doesn't actually have money coming, kills his hand. My set holds up and I win the pot.

My question: Does a-hole still owe me 6 bucks? Or does the fact that pit killed his hand clean the slate and everything is even?

I never complained about it at the time, but now I'm thinking of bringing it up with a-hole if I ever play with him again; but only if I have the right to. I know 6 bucks is stupid to argue over, but hey, that's 5 hours of work for me at the 2/4 table!

GcluelessnoobG

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

let it go, if the floor didn't enforce anything at the time it s over.

my guess is he was trying to win a hand with no money, if thats the case you'll never get a dime from him.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

You are never seeing any of that $6 even though the villain IMO owes it to you.

Any floor worth his salt is not letting this guy back into the room to play.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]


So then a-hole sits back down at the table again. Another dealer (a rookie) deals him some cards in EP;

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point (when he gets his first card), you speak up. He has missed his blind and should post. He has played a hand with no money before. Don't wait until he has two cards and then has "raised". Stop the dealer and demand that he produce chips and posts his missed blinds before he gets cards.

By letting it go as far as you did (he 'calls' on the flop) before someone else spoke up, I have little sympathy for you.

Protect yourself, nobody else will.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]

At this point (when he gets his first card), you speak up. He has missed his blind and should post. He has played a hand with no money before. Don't wait until he has two cards and then has "raised". Stop the dealer and demand that he produce chips and posts his missed blinds before he gets cards.

By letting it go as far as you did (he 'calls' on the flop) before someone else spoke up, I have little sympathy for you.

Protect yourself, nobody else will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I won't let it happen again with this guy; fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

But despite mistakes by the dealer and myself not taking appropriate action, the question still is: does this guy still technically owe me money since his hand was killed?

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

I recall reading about something just like this happening at Wynn playing 2/5. Guy busted, came back, dealer asked if he had chips coming, he says "yeah, $500" and plays a hand. He wins it. He proceeds to try to play with the $50 now in front of him and eventually folks ask "where's the $500". Oh, well...uhh....actually, there isn't any 'cause he's broke. So he tries to leave with the $50. Floor won't put up with that and I believe he takes it from the player and refunds the folks who lost money in the hand he played.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]
... the question still is: does this guy still technically owe me money since his hand was killed?...

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, the a-hole still owes the money to the pot (to you). will you ever get it? that's the tougher question to answer - probably not.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

Where was this? A-hole sounds like a few guys I know...

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

hey OP:

are you the same gobbledygeek that owns the domain gobbledygeek.com?

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

No, if his hand gets killed, he owes no money.

He only owes $6 if he gets $6 worth of action. He has no action here.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, if his hand gets killed, he owes no money.

He only owes $6 if he gets $6 worth of action. He has no action here.

[/ QUOTE ]

that sounds VERY clever.

I am putting 20$ in the pot preflop, on the flop I dont know what to do I ask my buddy and show him my cards, floor comes and kills my hand.

Your rulling would be that I take my 20$ back ?

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

No, my ruling would not be to give you $20 back, because in your example, I would not rule to kill your hand.

In the OP, the man put $0 in the pot, and received $0 worth of action. As Bav mentioned above, if by some miracle this scumsucker wins the pot, he ain't getting it.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

Wow. Averaging $1.20/hour. Please tell me you don't wear a parka, hat, glasses and headphones.

Your mistake was not complaining the first time scumboy took an angle shot. Trying to play without buying in is not something that should be let slide.

Whether scumboy owes you is quite irrelevant, because he aint gonna pay.

Al

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

I disagree that he didn't receive action.

What if everyone had folded to his initial raise before anyone questioned whether he really had money coming. He would have picked up the blinds.

I don't think this guy owes $6. I do think that this guy should be parred from the room for taking this shot twice in one night.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]
hey OP:

are you the same gobbledygeek that owns the domain gobbledygeek.com?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, if his hand gets killed, he owes no money.

He only owes $6 if he gets $6 worth of action. He has no action here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more the sort of type of answer I'm looking for (while the others regarding what I or the dealer should have done are worthwhile suggestions, they are actually irrelevant to the original question).

I'll admit that I'm confused by "he only owes $6 if he gets $6 worth of action". Can you clarify what you mean by that? He's raised preflop, had multiple callers, plus called a flop bet; isn't that action?

ETA: Ok, saw your other response saying that he's literally put $0 dollars into the pot (since he actually isn't behind money).

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]

So then a-hole sits back down at the table again. Another dealer (a rookie) deals him some cards in EP; on his turn he taps the table and says "raise up to four" and the dealer then asks if he has money behind. A-hole mumbles something that sounds to me like "forty" but he could just be repeating his raise of "four". No one has noticed whether he has actually given any money to a chip runner. I coldcall in SB, flop a set and lead out. A-hole calls, MP raises and action comes back to me where I 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to $4 PF, calls $2 on the flop - sounds like he owes the pot $6 to me. Sad thing is you'll never see it, and if this is in LV I would really like to know what room this was in.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

BTW: Not a Vegas casino; just a local lower mainland casino in B.C.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

Allow me to clarify my opinion:

His hand was killed BECAUSE he didn't put any money in. You can't kill his hand for that reason, AND make him put money in--if he puts the money in, then his hand shouldn't be killed!

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Allow me to clarify my opinion:

His hand was killed BECAUSE he didn't put any money in. You can't kill his hand for that reason, AND make him put money in--if he puts the money in, then his hand shouldn't be killed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. It is now clear to me that a-hole does not owe me money, therefore no reason to bring it up with him if I ever play with him again.

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

He played a hand with no chips and you let it slide the first time. Then it comes back and bites you in the assets the second time around.

Instant karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you right on the head

(John Lennon)

..... and it did

Re: Does Villain owe me money?
 

I disagree - he gave and created action (raise PF and called a bet on the flop). He owes money, but like I said you'll never see it.