Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

Peter 666, surprisingly said yes. Here is my stance:

If I believe a Mormon candidate is telling the truth when he says he won't bring his beliefs into his governmental decisions it is possible that he would make a good president. But only under two conditions.

1. He doesn't think his beliefs are self evident. In other words he doesn't believe that any rational person, upon examining the evidence, would be dumb to disbelieve in Mormonism. Because if he did believe that, it means that it is he, who can't think straight. (Of course it is true that I would say this regarding any religion, including yours. But you can't use that fact as a reason to reject this line of thinking regarding Mormons. Because you agree with me that you cannot arrive at Mormonism through rational thought and investigation.)

2. He doesn't believe that practioners of other religions or atheism, are doomed to hell, regardless of the goodness of their actions. Or that believers are almost guaranteed heaven. To see why it is dangerous to have someone like that in office, one need only look to the Middle East.

Aside from those of you who pick apart anything I say, I believe most of you will basically agree with the above. Perhaps someone out there knows someone who knows someone who is in a position to ask Romney about these two things. Or others candidates as well for that matter.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

i'd add
anyone who feels 'religious first' and not 'american first' would be a very bad choice.
anyone who's hearing voices in their dreams and then follow them would be a very bad choice.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

Sounds reasonable. #1 has to be stronger than #2 though.

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Aside from those of you who pick apart anything I say

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I think you managed to annoy some ivory tower mathematicians with your cutting (and accurate) insults. Please keep up the good work.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Because if he did believe that, it means that it is he, who can't think straight.

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WRT#1 I think people can and often do have stupid beliefs which are the result of poor thinking, but be straight thinkers generally and on important issues. I don't think many people can think clearly on every issue. So, while having stupid beliefs suggests one might generally be a poor thinker, I think poor thinking in many cases is isolated in attempting to rationalize one's faith.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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i'd add
anyone who feels 'american first' and not "liberty and democracy first" would be a very bad choice.


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Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Because if he did believe that, it means that it is he, who can't think straight.

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WRT#1 I think people can and often do have stupid beliefs which are the result of poor thinking, but be straight thinkers generally and on important issues. I don't think many people can think clearly on every issue. So, while having stupid beliefs suggests one might generally be a poor thinker, I think poor thinking in many cases is isolated in attempting to rationalize one's faith.

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But unless he was far superior to others, why take the risk?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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1. He doesn't think his beliefs are self evident. In other words he doesn't believe that any rational person, upon examining the evidence, would be dumb to disbelieve in Mormonism. Because if he did believe that, it means that it is he, who can't think straight. ( Of course it is true that I would say this regarding any religion, including yours . But you can't use that fact as a reason to reject this line of thinking regarding Mormons. Because you agree with me that you cannot arrive at Mormonism through rational thought and investigation.)


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Excluding any specific religion....Would you say the same thing about a general belief in God? Mormon Joe gives a speech at a campaign stop and says, "The mormon religion isn't self evident, but God is." And to himself he then says "Anyone who doesn't believe that is dumb". Do you think that guy make a good candidate?

Stu

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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1. He doesn't think his beliefs are self evident. In other words he doesn't believe that any rational person, upon examining the evidence, would be dumb to disbelieve in Mormonism. Because if he did believe that, it means that it is he, who can't think straight. ( Of course it is true that I would say this regarding any religion, including yours . But you can't use that fact as a reason to reject this line of thinking regarding Mormons. Because you agree with me that you cannot arrive at Mormonism through rational thought and investigation.)


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Excluding any specific religion....Would you say the same thing about a general belief in God? Mormon Joe gives a speech at a campaign stop and says, "The mormon religion isn't self evident, but God is." And to himself he then says "Anyone who doesn't believe that is dumb". Do you think that guy make a good candidate?

Stu

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That's a close one. Especially if he includes a non personal God.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

This thread makes me wonder if it is ok that the president has ~95% jewish advisors. Most of them come from a company named AEI (American Enterprises Institute).

The BBC has made an interesting documentation about them called "The War Party", which can easily be found on google.video or youtube.

The point is that there is not only a conflict of interests about religion. Who guarantees that jewish advisors protect the interests of the US more than the interests of Israel?

Isn't the whole conflict with the Islam a direct follow up to the US Middle East Policy?

As you can see, if you move the topic from absolutely non-relevant discussions about theoretical scenarios involving mormon presidents to something actual that really matters to every american right now, you immediately open the Box of Pandora.

Btw, is it ok to have a president who was born in Austria? Germany had a pretty bad experience with that. What would Bayes Theorem tell us about this choice?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

A Mormon is one of the front runners in the Republican Party.

And if the Jewish advisors you talk about believe that their religion is obviously and objectively, more likely to be correct than atheism, all other religions combined, and other not yet thought of theories about God, then they are complete morons as well.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

Ok, it certainly helps to know who is actually running for president in the USA, I cannot deny that.

Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe).

So what is the next step? Should candidates from other than religious minority groups be excluded from the race for president also? What about former bodybuilders? Would a chessplayer like Kasparov make a good president or did he sacrifice too many pawns?

What are your requirements to become an advisor for the president? The person must not be a mormon of course, but what about jews or people from the oil industry or the NRA?

Last but not least, do you think that the US president has the last decision on God? Because if he doesn't it doesn't matter what he thinks about the subject and if he is mormon or not.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

David, you really made me think about this. I guess, the ideal would be to constitutionally require an atheist president, barring that, one whose religious beliefs do not rest on the certainty that they are right and those who do not share his/hers religious view are wrong. Of course I would rliminate lunatics, like the current incumbent who reminds me often of that famous sentence out of the "Blues Brothers" movies ["We are on a mission from God"]. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

"Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe)."

You are totally missing my point. Perhaps it would be clearer if I said an apt analogous question would be if we should elect a president who believed that astrology was obviously correct.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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David, you really made me think about this. I guess, the ideal would be to constitutionally require an atheist president, barring that, one whose religious beliefs do not rest on the certainty that they are right and those who do not share his/hers religious view are wrong. Of course I would rliminate lunatics, like the current incumbent who reminds me often of that famous sentence out of the "Blues Brothers" movies ["We are on a mission from God"]. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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That's not all. Your president shouldn't only be an atheist, he should also have an extremely high set of moral and ethical values and neither be corrupt nor selfish.

It is certainly not easy to find this person, especially since I do not qualify for the job due to lack of citizenship.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe

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Of course religion holds a special place -- it claims to know absolute truth, absolute morality, life after death, purpose of our existence, etc. Do you really care if a president holds a minority view that he likes the Devil Rays?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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"Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe)."

You are totally missing my point. Perhaps it would be clearer if I said an apt analogous question would be if we should elect a president who believed that astrology was obviously correct.

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So for you being a mormon is the synonyme for being a complete idiot? I share that view, but I do not restrict it to mormons, in fact I treat all religions the same.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe

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Of course religion holds a special place -- it claims to know absolute truth, absolute morality, life after death, purpose of our existence, etc. Do you really care if a president holds a minority view that he likes the Devil Rays?

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My point is that the opinion of the american president doesn't matter to religion. If there is a God, he will probably laugh about Bush and his opinion.

If you treat the US president like a prophet, what happens when he gets voted out of office? Does his opinion still matter to you? What if the new president has a todally different view on things? Whom should you trust?

The catholic church avoids this problem, because their pope is president for lifetime.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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If you treat the US president like a prophet, what happens when he gets voted out of office? Does his opinion still matter to you? What if the new president has a todally different view on things? Whom should you trust?


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That is the crux of the problem in reverse. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It is not whether you treat the prez like a prophet, it is what happens if he thinks of himself as god anointed!

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Now this subject was about religion, but if you claim that people with minority views on religion shouldn't be given power, you have to use the same argument for other areas and other minorities also (unless religion holds a special place in your universe

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Of course religion holds a special place -- it claims to know absolute truth, absolute morality, life after death, purpose of our existence, etc. Do you really care if a president holds a minority view that he likes the Devil Rays?

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My point is that the opinion of the american president doesn't matter to religion.

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But it might matter to American policy.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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But it might matter to American policy.

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Of course it does, but what is the conclusion?

Let's assume your president has an absolutely clean and flawless view on religion, whatever that is, but he is gay. What now? It could influence his policy, because he may decide to replace Indepence Day with Christopher Street Day and force the Disney Channel to show "Queer as Folk". Ok, better no gay president!

Assume he is straight, but what if his dad owns an oil company and they might think it's cool for the US oil industry to build a pipeline through Afghanistan...?

I mean what is the conclusion? Do you want a guy who doesn't belong to a specific group and doesn't have an opinion on anything, because this is the only way to avoid a conflict of interests? What a boring guy would that be and could a person like that ever find enough courage to take a decision?

Maybe the position of the american president is simply too powerful, so that his personal preferences gain too much importance. My own view is that a democratic system shouldn't have a king. It is simply too much of a contradiction.

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But it might matter to American policy.

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Of course it does, but what is the conclusion?

Let's assume your president has an absolutely clean and flawless view on religion, whatever that is, but he is gay. What now?

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Being gay doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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Assume he is straight, but what if his dad owns an oil company and they might think it's cool for the US oil industry to build a pipeline through Afghanistan...?

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Being the son of an oil executive doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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Do you want a guy who doesn't belong to a specific group and doesn't have an opinion on anything, because this is the only way to avoid a conflict of interests?

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Belonging to a group or holding an opinion doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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What a boring guy would that be and could a person like that ever find enough courage to take a decision?

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Being not boring doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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Maybe the position of the american president is simply too powerful, so that his personal preferences gain too much importance.

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Having personal preferences doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

{And you can replace "Mormonism" with any fundamentalist religious dogma.}

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Being the son of an oil executive doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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You seem to imply that the president being a crook is less dangerous for the state and the citizens than him being irrational.

While I don't think that this is a knockout-argument, you probably win this one by points.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Being the son of an oil executive doesn't imply that the President holds seemingly irrational beliefs on who is eternally saved as righteous and who is eternally damned as wicked to be absolute, indisputable truth. A fervent belief in Mormonism does.

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You seem to imply that the president being a crook is less dangerous for the state and the citizens than him being irrational.

While I don't think that this is a knockout-argument, you probably win this one by points.

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I didn't say that. There are other reasons why you wouldn't want this President, but let's stay on topic.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

1. No one will ask him about these things in this manner because that is "disrespectful" or whatever.

2. I would rather here someone ask him about the Mormon's racist policies that were only overruled by a "revelation" within the past 30-ish years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...ter-day_Saints

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks_...Saint_movement

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

We had a president who apparently used astrology to make decisions. He was a very successful president. Not only did he do this but he was an ignoramus. Members of his own party were virtually unanimous in citing his ignorance of facts and policy when they met with him; he did not know that Grover Cleveland Alexander--who he once played in the movies--was a different person than Grover Cleveland.

The person who he replaced as president was, by all accounts, a brilliant guy--a gifted student, selected by Admiral Rickover to be a key person in the United States' fledgling nuclear submarine program. His presidency was a disaster.

A person can have silly ideas about certain things, or be uninformed about others, and still be capable and competent at their job. Likewise, a person can be brilliantly intelligent and be terrible at their job. Every president we've had believed that Jesus Christ was born of an immaculate conception and was resurrected because he was the son of God. Does this mean they were all destined to be poor presidents?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

Do you think that if you interviewed all the candidates on their religious views you could vote for any of them? I'm talking private interviews so they wouldn't have to pander.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

I agree that points #1 and #2 are weak necessary conditions for a Mormon (or any theist) to make an okay presidental candidate. (But far from sufficient, obviously.)

Along these lines I would also add a third condition: That the candidate has a basic understanding of and accepts the conclusions of mainstream science, including evolution.

If the candidate rejects well established scientific theories due to his (or her) religious dogma, that proves he or she is far too unintelligent or irrational (or mostly likely both) to be president.

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<font color="blue"> Every president we've had believed that Jesus Christ was born of an immaculate conception and was resurrected because he was the son of God. Does this mean they were all destined to be poor presidents? </font>

I'd be very surprised if Bill (or Hillary) Clinton believed this. I'd bet a lot of money they are both closet atheists. If Bill wasn't before, I'm sure Hillary has set him straight by now.

Nancy Reagan consulting with an astrologist doesn't mean her husband ever made a decision based on astrology. And it's also not clear that he was seriously religious.

I don't remember much about his presidency, but do you really think Richard Nixon believed Jesus was born of an immaculate conception? I highly doubt it.

You have to understand these people NEED to put on that dog and pony show about being a faithful believer in God. They could never be elected otherwise. With the exception of Carter (who was intelligent), and the two Bushes (the son, who's IQ couldn't compete with the price of a happy meal), I'm not sure any president in my lifetime was devout in his religious beliefs.

Regardless, it can't hurt having someone in office who wouldn't view a nuclear holocaust as the good sign of the 2nd coming of their savior. All else being equal of course.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Perhaps it would be clearer if I said an apt analogous question would be if we should elect a president who believed that astrology was obviously correct.

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so i guess you disapproved of reagan, but my main point is what do you think about presidents/leaders going to bohemian grove for the pagan rituals including mock child sacrifice?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Nancy Reagan consulting with an astrologist doesn't mean her husband ever made a decision based on astrology

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not true at all, many meetings, trips, and schedules were planned around astrology, although maybe you mean like major policy or something.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

I imagine David would aruge that the fact that Reagan either believed in, or allowed policy to be decided (and when to schedule an appointment is policy) by his wife's belief in, astrology, might well be an indication of--to use David's politically incorrect term--a "moron." I think the evidence is compelling that he was both ignorant and unintelligent. It's not as clear, it seems to me, that he was therefore a bad president. It is clear to me that Jimmy Carter was much more intelligent than Reagan and was much more religious and was also a much less successful president. Nixon was a Quaker and often spoke of his "sainted" mother and her Quaker beliefs. He obviously wasn't a pacifist.

No doubt politicians have to pay lip service to God and that their private beliefs might be quite different than their public pandering. We have never elected a non-Christian president. My point was that the fact that whether or not a presdient was devoutly religious might not be important to their governance.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

<font color="blue">My point was that the fact that whether or not a presdient was devoutly religious might not be important to their governance. </font>

I'm not sure that follows. I'm not much of a history buff and I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but...

We've both agreed that the two most religious presidents in our lifetimes were Carter and the current Bush. I think by most people's definition they are also two of the worst presidents in our lifetime. Coincedence?

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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Nancy Reagan consulting with an astrologist doesn't mean her husband ever made a decision based on astrology

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not true at all, many meetings, trips, and schedules were planned around astrology, although maybe you mean like major policy or something.

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I didn't realize this. If true, it certainly speaks to his gullibililty. Still, do we know for a fact that he was also this gullible when it came to religious?

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Nancy Reagan consulting with an astrologist doesn't mean her husband ever made a decision based on astrology

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not true at all, many meetings, trips, and schedules were planned around astrology, although maybe you mean like major policy or something.

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I didn't realize this. If true, it certainly speaks to his gullibililty. Still, do we know for a fact that he was also this gullible when it came to religious?

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An alternative hypothesis is that Mr. Reagan was intelligent enough not to contradict his wife about engaging in such fanciful trivialities.

Re: Is It OK To Have A Mormon President?
 

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So for you being a mormon is the synonyme for being a complete idiot? I share that view, but I do not restrict it to mormons, in fact I treat all religions the same.

[/ QUOTE ]youre missing the nuances. a protestant president GENERALLY will not hold the same strength of conviction as a mormon president ds makes money on such differences.................

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An alternative hypothesis is that Mr. Reagan was intelligent enough not to contradict his wife about engaging in such fanciful trivialities.

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Sadly, the evidence does not support this hypothesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_R....27s_protector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Quigley

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We've both agreed that the two most religious presidents in our lifetimes were Carter and the current Bush.

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well you realize that bush's whole texan thing is an act, right? I mean, that's admitted. what's not admitted is that the whole christian thing is an act too. I mean if you think bush is a christian you may as well just believe iraq had wmd's and just believe everything.

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We've both agreed that the two most religious presidents in our lifetimes were Carter and the current Bush.

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well you realize that bush's whole texan thing is an act, right? I mean, that's admitted. what's not admitted is that the whole christian thing is an act too. I mean if you think bush is a christian you may as well just believe iraq had wmd's and just believe everything.

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If he doesn't think he's a Christian, what reason did he have to veto the stem cell bill this term?

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We've both agreed that the two most religious presidents in our lifetimes were Carter and the current Bush.

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well you realize that bush's whole texan thing is an act, right? I mean, that's admitted. what's not admitted is that the whole christian thing is an act too. I mean if you think bush is a christian you may as well just believe iraq had wmd's and just believe everything.

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If he doesn't think he's a Christian, what reason did he have to veto the stem cell bill this term?

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1 - could be because his supporters pressured him to
2 - could be because he believes stem cell research is wrong. does not have to be because he is a christian

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If he doesn't think he's a Christian, what reason did he have to veto the stem cell bill this term?

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d.c. told him to? lol. i don't know.