Strange hand vs CTS
 

We have alot of history together but both of us have a ton of respect for each others games, so ive noticed when it's not shorthanded we dont really go at it too much. I have no idea what to put him on though. What do you guys think of my turn play and who calls here?

Hand #48009835-12421 at Costa Mesa (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 21/Nov/07 13:50:16

JacquesB is at seat 0 with $3687.
MUCKEMSAYUHH is at seat 1 with $2522.
xxomegaredxx is at seat 2 with $2682.
Hifool is at seat 3 with $1173.
maxEmus125 is at seat 4 with $3295.
me is at seat 5 with $6767.
The button is at seat 2.

Hifool posts the small blind of $10.
maxEmus125 posts the big blind of $25.

JacquesB: -- --
MUCKEMSAYUHH: -- --
xxomegaredxx: -- --
Hifool: -- --
maxEmus125: -- --
me: Jd Js

Pre-flop:
me raises to $85. JacquesB folds.
MUCKEMSAYUHH re-raises to $290. xxomegaredxx folds.
Hifool folds. maxEmus125 folds. me calls.


Flop (board: Ts 9c 8s):

me checks. MUCKEMSAYUHH checks.

Turn (board: Ts 9c 8s 6c):
me bets $400. MUCKEMSAYUHH goes all-in for $2232.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

ez fold.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

SNAP call.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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ez fold.

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Not really, given there are sooo many draws and basically the only made hand beating you is a 7x (which become less likely since he 3-bet UTG), I'd end up calling this. I think the chances of cts checking behind anything dominating JJ on the flop are very slim.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

I'd call, but I wouldn't exactly call it a snapcall.

However, given you actually bet this board, folding would be criminal; the board is so drawy that you have to expect this to happen at least a fairly good % of the time, so bet/folding here seems really, really atrocious. In fact, I'm not a big fan of the bet at all.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

can someone ban pbfan i don't like him. responses like his are kind of useful when they're made by people like krantz or cts because they are actually good players and so if they say to do something, you can be like 'ok well thats not my normal line so i need to at least think about the hand some more independently'.

when r3tards do it its just a waste of forum space; note to all you r3tards out there: if you are going to post a response in a hsnl thread, please provide: pokerstove math, your interpretation of both players ranges, and then whether or not pot odds implies a call given these.

no one cares about your r3tard one line responses, and they don't help you get better either.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

Wow such a strange hand. I can honestly say ive never seen a hand like this before. Id probably fold, just seems like a bad spot for him to stone-cold bluff here, and I think if he had a flush draw or something he would have just gone ahead and bet the flop. But its tough definitely.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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can someone ban pbfan i don't like him. responses like his are kind of useful when they're made by people like krantz or cts because they are actually good players and so if they say to do something, you can be like 'ok well thats not my normal line so i need to at least think about the hand some more independently'.

when r3tards do it its just a waste of forum space; note to all you r3tards out there: if you are going to post a response in a hsnl thread, please provide: pokerstove math, your interpretation of both players ranges, and then whether or not pot odds implies a call given these.

no one cares about your r3tard one line responses, and they don't help you get better either.

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you obviously didn't see his bbv post!

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
can someone ban pbfan i don't like him. responses like his are kind of useful when they're made by people like krantz or cts because they are actually good players and so if they say to do something, you can be like 'ok well thats not my normal line so i need to at least think about the hand some more independently'.

when r3tards do it its just a waste of forum space; note to all you r3tards out there: if you are going to post a response in a hsnl thread, please provide: pokerstove math, your interpretation of both players ranges, and then whether or not pot odds implies a call given these.

no one cares about your r3tard one line responses, and they don't help you get better either.

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Not sure we need to come down so harsh here, but I agree that the one line responses are pretty useless/obnoxious in that they provide no real analysis whatsoever.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

The more I think about this hand, the only reason to bet the turn seems to be to induce a bluff raise, so we need to call. I dont know cts' game at all, and if he 3bets 88/99/tt vs your utg open, but assuming not it seems he likes has a hand like AQcc or something similar

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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The more I think about this hand, the only reason to bet the turn seems to be to induce a bluff raise, so we need to call. I dont know cts' game at all, and if he 3bets 88/99/tt vs your utg open, but assuming not it seems he likes has a hand like AQcc or something similar

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i think that you just cant give him a range that small here.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

trambo, why did you bet the turn? in retrospect, do you still think it's better than checking?

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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The more I think about this hand, the only reason to bet the turn seems to be to induce a bluff raise, so we need to call. I dont know cts' game at all, and if he 3bets 88/99/tt vs your utg open, but assuming not it seems he likes has a hand like AQcc or something similar

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i think that you just cant give him a range that small here.

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what range do u put him on that RR op's utg open and checked this flop?

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

call but hate it

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

Thoughts on flop lead?

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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The more I think about this hand, the only reason to bet the turn seems to be to induce a bluff raise, so we need to call. I dont know cts' game at all, and if he 3bets 88/99/tt vs your utg open, but assuming not it seems he likes has a hand like AQcc or something similar

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i think that you just cant give him a range that small here.

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what range do u put him on that RR op's utg open and checked this flop?

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Isnt this a pretty terrible flop to check with a set?

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

This hand baffles me, and I dont have really any guesses. This is why cole is a great player, his hand is nowhere near readable.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

I think I would learn a ton from knowing what range of hands cts does this with (and why, of course).

I can't see the benefits of cts checking behind the flop with a monster hand (other then QJ) really benefiting him more then he loses when you have an overpair. Its not like if you have AK you're suddenly going to give him a ton of action if you hit on the turn.

The only hands i can think of that he might have are low flush draws 45ss 56ss, QJs, 67s and 66.

stealthcow-

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

man i hate turn bet

i lead flop 30% maybe

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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Thoughts on flop lead?

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Don't like it. Not deep enough to bet/3bet-ai. Bet/folding is weak, imo.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

hate turnbet vs someone as good as cole is.

and he is really really good.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

i hate turn bet as well. You are almost never going to get called by a good player. Even if you do the river is just going to be bigger and make for a more annoying decision.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

i think most of the time he has a hand like TJcc or a straight here, likely one that includes a 7... your hand is very possibly a set given the utg open and calling of a reraise. that board crushed that range and cole should know this... so while it's possible and makes a lot of sense that he would have a draw here, it would have to be a pretty big draw. and if he does have a made hand, pushing is pretty much the only size bet that makes sense on the turn given your range. i think it's close but i can definitely find a fold here.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

magicninja srsly do you just suck at ignoring people? why even bother wasting your time with a rant like that... obv OP can listen to the people he wants and ignore the people he wants. who cares if some random wants to post? anyhow, i agree w most that i hate the turn bet. i think the real key in this hand is what CTS is possibly checking behind on the flop with. it could be a "i have the nuts" check, so he doesn't really care about a free card. or he could easily check behind with 77... or check a big pair cuz of the scary board (would he do this?)... then he doesn't give you credit for a 7 cuz you lead out on the turn. haha i didn't really narrow it down though huh. this is so sick. i end up folding reluctantly. (altho i would be tempted to call just to see wtf he played like that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

There is no answer to this situation, because both calling and folding are losing propositions. This is the reality of position and game theory conspiring against you. Given a plausible range of hands for the villain, calling sucks and folding sucks. The lesson, as has already been indicated earlier in the thread, is that you should have checked the turn. Then you're left with a far, far easier decision when he either bets something reasonable (not all-in) or checks behind again.

This is a great spot to bet into a total fish who is either a calling station or a bluffing station. In that case, you're getting real value by either getting a bad call or calling a push from a player with a weaker range of hands. Against someone competent, the bet is no good.

But, seeing as how the OP didn't check, but bet instead, my answer is flip a coin and decide, call or fold. That's likely to be as good at making this decision as any amount of analysis. Your equity if you fold is $0, and I have to imagine that's roughly what your expectation will be if you call.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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There is no answer to this situation, because both calling and folding are losing propositions

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wtf does this even mean. there is very clearly an answer. the answer is call or fold. they can't both be worse than the other. and folding isn't a losing proposition, it's a 0EV proposition.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

imabigdeal;
my thoughts have no relevance to this particular thread, but its the one i had open when i wanted to vent.

whatever the case, they are pretty valid, if you are not a high stakes player and want to post in high stakes threads, it would be great to show some math / equity analysis behind your thoughts. because thats stuff a lot of high stakes players are too lazy to do.

eg it would be great if some 1/2 nl player chimed in and said 'well look, if we put CTS' range as 10% pure bluff, 30% draw like AQc and 50% as a 7, and our equity vs this range is X% and we are getting laid whatever odds, this is a call; however notice if he is only on a draw 10% of the time or whatever, its a fold; i'm not really sure how to analyse CTS' range, because i haven't played with him, thoughts?'.

you might say 'you're a hypocrite you're not posting anything', but this post is infinitely more useful than most the other peoples in this thread, i am basically saying how to solve the hand (as well as it can be solved without a stronger read on CTS' range).

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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There is no answer to this situation, because both calling and folding are losing propositions

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wtf does this even mean. there is very clearly an answer. the answer is call or fold. they can't both be worse than the other. and folding isn't a losing proposition, it's a 0EV proposition.

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care to explain this a bit further? the 0ev proposition.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

gotta call

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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I think I would learn a ton from knowing what range of hands cts does this with (and why, of course).

I can't see the benefits of cts checking behind the flop with a monster hand (other then QJ) really benefiting him more then he loses when you have an overpair. Its not like if you have AK you're suddenly going to give him a ton of action if you hit on the turn.

The only hands i can think of that he might have are low flush draws 45ss 56ss, QJs, 67s and 66.

stealthcow-

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Didn't even notice the ton of backdoor flush draws (AKcc, AQcc KQcc AJcc 45cc 56cc etc) that make sense for him to push. I think you gotta call this.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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gotta call

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no you don't.

I agree w/ magicninjas rant here.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

how would you know what to do

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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care to explain this a bit further? the 0ev proposition.

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The EV of folding is always zero. By folding, you do not expect to gain or lose anything. Folding can still be a bad EV-play if EV(Call)>0, and this is where the confusion arises.

If you decided EV(Call)=+100, then you do lose 100 by folding, but the EV of folding is not negative, it's still zero.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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i think most of the time he has a hand like TJcc or a straight here, likely one that includes a 7... your hand is very possibly a set given the utg open and calling of a reraise. that board crushed that range and cole should know this... so while it's possible and makes a lot of sense that he would have a draw here, it would have to be a pretty big draw. and if he does have a made hand, pushing is pretty much the only size bet that makes sense on the turn given your range. i think it's close but i can definitely find a fold here.

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i agree with vanessa completely here.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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care to explain this a bit further? the 0ev proposition.

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The EV of folding is always zero. By folding, you do not expect to gain or lose anything. Folding can still be a bad EV-play if EV(Call)>0, and this is where the confusion arises.

If you decided EV(Call)=+100, then you do lose 100 by folding, but the EV of folding is not negative, it's still zero.

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Technically so would betting 2100 and folding for 100 more. Doesn't mean we should analyze the hand that way

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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how would you know what to do

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How would you know? Someone opened something other than AA/KK utg!!

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

agree with vanessa and bigt

"the only made hand beating you is a 7x"
I dont really agree. I can see CTS showing up with QQ KK sometimes here as he wont get alot of value by betting the flop with those hands. Playing it the way he did and waiting for a non 7JQ turn to push is safer and makes it harder for the guy who wanted to CR allin with JJ or AJ or a set on the flop.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

and to do a calculation, giving CTS a range of QQ+, 77, 78,79, AK-ATcc, KQ-KTcc and QJs our equity is 25%. We need 36% equity to call. So id fold.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

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agree with vanessa and bigt

"the only made hand beating you is a 7x"
I dont really agree. I can see CTS showing up with QQ KK sometimes here as he wont get alot of value by betting the flop with those hands. Playing it the way he did and waiting for a non 7JQ turn to push is safer and makes it harder for the guy who wanted to CR allin with JJ or AJ or a set on the flop.

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I agree with this ... I Also like a check behind with qj here if I'm cole as hes getting it in vs any 2 pair/ set anyway so he doent need to protect against a turned full house, it also gives us a chance to set up/ pair/ make a dumby strt/bluff.

Re: Strange hand vs CTS
 

magicninja,

don't get me wrong here. i agree with most everything you're saying. all i'm saying is that i for one am lazy and would just choose to ignore a random posting a one-liner (as eye-rolling as it might be to read them). now if there were like 50 different posts like that and it was just cluttering up the thread, that's a different story. personally, i don't play quite this high yet either, but i'm well on my way and i feel like i know enough to contribute here. i love learning and i enjoy posting in HSNL cuz it gives me an opportunity to see if great players (such as yourself) agree/disagree with me. k, /hijack, sorry for the clutter guys.