KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Poker Stars, $25 + $2.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 800/1,600 Blinds, 8 Players

83 left, hero is in top ten or so
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): 104,090
SB: 23,915
BB: 50,583
UTG: 9,957
UTG+1: 7,260
MP1: 10,403
MP2: 36,793
CO: 19,871

Pre-Flop: (3,600) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to 10,253 and is All-In</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls 10,253, SB folds, BB calls 8,653

Flop: (32,759) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (32,759) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
<font color="red">BB bets 3,200</font>, Hero calls 3,200

River: (39,159) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
<font color="red">BB bets 11,200</font>, Hero folds

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Bet the flop. As played, you're probably beat on the river but you still have a huge stack if you call. There's a chance he has KQ or AQ which I think is worth 11k more to call.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Raise preflop. I might even min raise here to isolate. Bet flop as played.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Push preflop. No point minraising to isolate since your going to call either of the Blinds pushes anyways. This tough spot postflop could have been easily avoided.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

I think we are being a bit results orientated here guys. We aren't here to avoid tough spots, we are here to max EV.

I think the flat call pre was fine, we have a monster, and we will be in position against the blinds if they deciede to come along.

I think you should have led out on the flop though and then gone from there.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we are being a bit results orientated here guys. We aren't here to avoid tough spots, we are here to max EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tough spots give you chances to make big mistakes, big mistakes are very -EV.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

That's a dangerous flop to be giving free cards. BB's range is pretty wide for a preflop overcall with the pot odds. You need to bet this flop. BB only has slightly more than a PSB in his stack on the flop so putting him all in on the flop wouldn't be bad.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we are being a bit results orientated here guys. We aren't here to avoid tough spots, we are here to max EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tough spots give you chances to make big mistakes, big mistakes are very -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well don't make big mistakes then...?? If poker was easy, it would be harder to win.

I don't actually think seeing a flop with KK in position, when you hand is reasonably under repped is a particularly tough spot, but whatever...

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's a dangerous flop to be giving free cards. BB's range is pretty wide for a preflop overcall with the pot odds. You need to bet this flop. BB only has slightly more than a PSB in his stack on the flop so putting him all in on the flop wouldn't be bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^ nailed it. agree completely.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we are being a bit results orientated here guys. We aren't here to avoid tough spots, we are here to max EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tough spots give you chances to make big mistakes, big mistakes are very -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well don't make big mistakes then...?? If poker was easy, it would be harder to win.

I don't actually think seeing a flop with KK in position, when you hand is reasonably under repped is a particularly tough spot, but whatever...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with Jammy here... What the hell is the matter with you people? How can you develop your poker skillz and maximize EV if your main goal is to avoid post-flop decisions? As Jammy said, we're in position and have the second best starting hand in Texas Hold'em. Geez!

OP, you have to bet the flop here, no doubt about it. As played, I'd fold to his river bet, he seems confident to have the best hand.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

A couple things regarding betting the flop:

- Stacksize of villian is such that you can't continuation bet / fold;
- When a short stack is all in most players take a "lets check it down mentallity". If he fires at us on the turn or river he will never be bluffing.
- As such, if you check back this flop and bet a checked turn you will be in a great spot to take value off one pair hands you beat. Particularly BECAUSE you checked the flop back.

I really do not believe that checking this flop is all that bad. It is an odd situation where we almost never get bluffed off the best hand and he will play kinda faceup on the turn and river for us.


As for everything else; calling pre is fine. Min raising would be retarded obv.

You have to call the turn. I hate the river spot because you are getting a sick price - but I think it is a fold.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Isolate pre, bet flop

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isolate pre, bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]
STFU with a post like that.

Why should we isolate pre when you look at the stacksizes of your opponents? There is not a whole lot of money to go in against anyone and the pot is now going to be at least 21k on the flop.

If someone known to be a top player or a regular contributer wants to come in and give a one line response fair enough. You have five [censored] posts to your name. The above is needlessly arrogant and completely unhelpful. Grinds my gears it does. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
A couple things regarding betting the flop:

- Stacksize of villian is such that you can't continuation bet / fold;
- When a short stack is all in most players take a "lets check it down mentallity". If he fires at us on the turn or river he will never be bluffing.
- As such, if you check back this flop and bet a checked turn you will be in a great spot to take value off one pair hands you beat. Particularly BECAUSE you checked the flop back.

I really do not believe that checking this flop is all that bad. It is an odd situation where we almost never get bluffed off the best hand and he will play kinda faceup on the turn and river for us.


As for everything else; calling pre is fine. Min raising would be retarded obv.

You have to call the turn. I hate the river spot because you are getting a sick price - but I think it is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right about the dry pot, but problem is that he could be value betting/portecting against draws with a worse hand if he does start betting, so I'm not sure it puts his hand as face up as you think.

You are right about not c-betting/folding, but with an under-repped overpair, I've got no intention of doing so. If i didn't push, id be bet/calling.

That said, I'd just push this flop right there and hope to get called by one pair or a draw not getting the odds. I'm happy getting it in on this flop, but the board is a bit drawy to be giving him a free card.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isolate pre, bet flop

[/ QUOTE ]
STFU with a post like that.

Why should we isolate pre when you look at the stacksizes of your opponents? There is not a whole lot of money to go in against anyone and the pot is now going to be at least 21k on the flop.

If someone known to be a top player or a regular contributer wants to come in and give a one line response fair enough. You have five [censored] posts to your name. The above is needlessly arrogant and completely unhelpful. Grinds my gears it does. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not really the lack of posts, its more the choice of thread.

There's a lot of hands which are pretty simple, and a 1 line response is fine, no matter who it comes from, but here there's obviously been a lot of thought and discussion going on, so a 1 line post which repeats what has already been said, isn't particularly useful.

That said, welcome to the boards, please stick around, read the FAqs etc, and after you get the hang of things, please post, we always welcome new posters.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

sry for the quick post, have not that much time posting at work
given the stack sizes the BB is the only concern, and if he tends to squeeze in this spot then the flat call is superior to the isolation play
if the BB tends to cold call raises, in my opinion the 3-bet is better (although he would have to commit 1/5 of his stack, so an overcall is not that likely at all)
once you've just called and he overcalls and checks to you
I would bet out because very likely we have the best hand here and our overpair is vulnarable to a lot of holdings the BB can have

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

I don't like playing kk multiway unless I know someone behind is likely to squeeze, so I push pre flop. As played bet flop.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Ace, I suspect you were attempting to induce a squeeze here?
Your thoughts as you're going through the hand would be great, you're a good thinking player, maybe I'm missing something. Particularly the check behind on this draw heavy flop.
As played, I think that flop needs a bet, not many cards come off the turn that we feel great about, we are letting him hit a huge draw, free. I like a check behind here on quite a few flops, possibly getting BB to commit.
The fold is fine, we're beat here the vast majority of times.

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Here is my thinking


[ QUOTE ]

Hero (BTN): 104,090
SB: 23,915
BB: 50,583
UTG: 9,957
UTG+1: 7,260
MP1: 10,403
MP2: 36,793
CO: 19,871

Pre-Flop: (3,600) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to 10,253 and is All-In</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls 10,253,

::: Hero calls, MP1 range is probably pockets, and Ax
In any event, KK has that crushed unless an ace flops, so I'm ok with other people calling here, because I'm beat often if an ace flops anyway so I'm not worried about letting others in. I like most flops, + I have position and a playable stack should I lose.
::::

SB folds, BB calls 8,653

:::: Ok BB calls, good so far ::::::

Flop: (32,759) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
BB checks,
::: This is one of the few flops I DON'T like, I might overestimate the likelyhood getting check raised here, but I think most of the time BB is check raising hands that beat me (2pairs, straight, sets) and perhaps AQ type hands.

&lt;--- this might be flawed
:::: So I figured instead of being way behind and committed, I'd check since I could gauge his hand strength fairly well in the dry pot. ::::::

Hero checks

Turn: (32,759) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
<font color="red">BB bets 3,200</font>, Hero calls 3,200
::::: Didn't really think much here, he could be taking a stab, or have a pair, I think sets are much less likely with this small bet, but he could be scared of the straight that developed. ::::

River: (39,159) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)
<font color="red">BB bets 11,200</font>,
::: Hmmm, this should be a scare card for him, yet he bets it. I think he's got me beat/It's possible for him to have AQ here I suppose(And be making a bet/fold but it's a dry pot), that's about the only hand I see KK beating. Since the dry pot I doubt he'd be bluffing me with air here. I have a playable stack and thus I fold:::

Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

the passive line is okay but I bet the flop always...on the river I don't see folding given the weakness of your line and the pot odds he is offering you...

what did BB have? I'm sure this is somewhat of a results oriented post so I guess the fold was correct..AJ or KJ for BB?

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

BB had J and a pair. Think it was JT or JQ. Shorty had AKo

Re: KK, + dry pot + deepstack overcall
 

Call pre is lets lots of worse hands come along at a discount. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. I'd be planning on shoving any non-A flop though.

I think your range for MP1 is a little tight though, depending on table dynamics. He's almost got to be opening looser than aces and pairs, with only around 6BB left. I'd guess most SCs, pairs, aces, decent kings, two broadway. He can't sit there and wait for a good hand, or a chance to open in LP. He's still got enough chips to have a little fold equity, but a lot of that goes away if he passes through the blinds again, he needs to make a move now if he's aware of that fact.