Some bluffs!
 

Villain is laggish, 27/21 over a lot of hands. My image is pretty solid I believe, haven't got much history with him. He called the turn pretty quickly, fwiw.

Party Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $205.34
CO: $505.50
Hero (BTN): $400
SB: $284.81
BB: $573

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $14</font>, Hero calls $14, 2 folds

Flop: ($34) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30

Turn: ($94) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $74</font>, CO calls $74

River: ($242) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $282 and is All-In</font>


Villain is some TAG I don't have any history with or have played with much before, have him in the 21/16 range over a medium sample. If he doesn't view me as unknown he will view me as a standard TAG probably.

Party Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $410
SB: $148.10
BB: $402
UTG: $843.10
CO: $127.25

Pre-Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16</font>, SB folds, BB calls $12

Flop: ($34) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $24</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $82</font>, BB calls $58

Turn: ($198) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $160</font>

Re: Some bluffs!
 

no to both

first one i think you're trying to rep exactly JT when there are plenty of draws in your range

second one i don't think he's folding turn after calling flop

Re: Some bluffs!
 

First one I don't like. If he doesn't believe you on the turn I don't think he's going to believe you on that brick of a river. I think LAG players are used to calling with KJ here because of how much they get played back at. I think this works some amount of the time (maybe 30-35%), but not enough to make it profitable.

I like the second one more because it works two ways. I think he can fold medium strength hands like AJ or A8s or JT, but still call you with draws that you are ahead of (QhJh and worse). His flop peel is slightly worrisome, but not enough to put me off.

As long as you aren't giving off a bet size tell (I normally don't bet quite so much on the turn) I think the second hand is good.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

I just want to add that you should pay attention to the results of the second hand. Lots of players just never take this weird line with their draws and mediocre hands, and are going to take you to town. Obviously don't try this again if you figure out he's that type.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

i think both are fine. 1 is opponent dependent but this is going to be a tough call for his range if he's not a spewmonkey (some 27/21's are though)

Re: Some bluffs!
 

i like one more than 2-people jsut dont fold a pair of A

but im not a big fan of either

Re: Some bluffs!
 

I hate both....
1. its a super drawy board and every draw missed the only made hands you ever have here are like AQ, 88, KQ ,A8s and JT. You'd 3bet pf a lot with AQ so discount it. You'd raise flop a lot with 88/KQ so discount it.

2. Its not thaaat bad with more history because villain probably expects you to peel a lot of draws on the turn. But given there isnt't much history and its a super drawy board don't expect villain to fold any real hands.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

yeah actually i changed my mind about 2, considering he'd 3bet most big aces pf this board has a lot of sets/2ps/straights even semibluffing opportunities for him. i still like 1 though.

eagles, you listed a ton of hands we could represent... this seems like a tough call with kq/aq for him, and he doesn't even have to be that strong at all. stronger hands probably c/r the turn all-in too.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate both....
1. its a super drawy board and every draw missed the only made hands you ever have here are like AQ, 88, KQ ,A8s and JT. You'd 3bet pf a lot with AQ so discount it. You'd raise flop a lot with 88/KQ so discount it.

2. Its not thaaat bad with more history because villain probably expects you to peel a lot of draws on the turn. But given there isnt't much history and its a super drawy board don't expect villain to fold any real hands.

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What would your river calling range be in hand one? And how often is AK/AQ ever checking this turn? IMO his hand looks a lot like Ax, or maybe KJ or something similar. But c/c this turn with AK/AQ? I dunno, seems unlikely, especially given how quick he called the turn. Those hands would at least take some time to contemplate raising, yeah?

Hand 2, I just don't see what exactly bet/calls the flop that is strong enough to get it in on the turn? I mean, if he puts me on a bluff/draw then obviously he is getting it in with all sorts of bluff catchers, but I think my line looks pretty strong, and I think his range is heavily weighted towards draws and top pair hands. He has no reason yet to think I'm very aggressive to this point.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

Aislephive,
Problem with hand 1 is a lot of draws missed. and when you shove for overpot, (it does make a difference) typically it means a very polarized range. Depends on how I was playing but I could def look you up with Ax or Kx from time to time. I agree with you about what villain's range is but if he's good he can def call with that stuff.

Hand 2
Ya he took sort of a werid line... but I find bluffing guys when they take lines like this rarely works + he can be like I took a weird line hes fuckign with me drawy board I can'
t fold anything good.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

I like hand 2 much better than hand 1. hand one will only work if hes not very good, otherwise he will call w Ax pretty often. hand 2 in villains shoes and w/o any history I would probly fold AK, so 2 is good.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

i like them both, i would only bet less on hand 2.. it is not necessary to bet that large imo

Re: Some bluffs!
 

Why the flop call in hand 1?

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the flop call in hand 1?

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Seriously?

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like hand 2 much better than hand 1. hand one will only work if hes not very good, otherwise he will call w Ax pretty often.

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meh, people always say this kind of thing around here and i think it's often pretty results oriented (in this case the results being that we know we're bluffing). if someone posted the same hand from villain's perspective and we had A9, the majority would be like "easy fold you only beat air"

Re: Some bluffs!
 

hand one meh, i like hand two

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why the flop call in hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, we have third pair a coordinated flop. Villain is laggy so I doubt he is just gonna c/f the turn...

Re: Some bluffs!
 

don't like hand one,

hand 2 is not bad as long as u don't make it a habbit.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

i dont like the flop raise in 2, but turn bet is fine i think

Re: Some bluffs!
 

I would often fold the flop in hand 1, although the backdoor flush would probably keep me in, here.

I dunno, I think your overbet shove will have mixed results. I've seen some pretty huge calls and some pretty big laydowns, depends on what level he's on. Most LAGs are payoff wizards, though, which is not in your favor.

I assume this flop raise is standard for many of you? I know I do it all the time. I'm not in love with this board for it, since it's pretty draw heavy, and people hate folding aces.

As for the follow through, if you think he's more likely to make this play with a draw than an A, I like it. You can't price out a draw here, but you're still a favorite, and he might even fold his non-combo draws.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

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Disagree completely with regards to the second hand, especially the part bolded. Why is he terrible if he folds? I don't see why my line would be viewed as weak or bluffy, it's very consistent with various made hands I would play exactly the same. I also don't think anybody sane checkraises the turn with a draw, considering I have only $140 or so behind.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

If you are villain in hand one what can you call with? I think the rest of the hand is pretty good, but I just dont like the flop peel. If spades show up on turn and he fires again are you raising? What would you be repping besides turned 2pr, turned big draw? I still dont get why the flop call isnt -EV, unless its some meta I can peel any flop with any pair I float alot crap.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are villain in hand one what can you call with? I think the rest of the hand is pretty good, but I just dont like the flop peel. If spades show up on turn and he fires again are you raising? What would you be repping besides turned 2pr, turned big draw? I still dont get why the flop call isnt -EV, unless its some meta I can peel any flop with any pair I float alot crap.

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Flop call is good because I'm ahead of his range and can still improve if I don't have the best hand at the moment. If a spade peels and he fires again, I'd probably just call. But this guy is cbetting nearly his entire CO opening range, which given his stats is likely pretty massive. You think he's only betting this flop with top pair or second pair? That's definitely not the case. Yes he will put me in some tough turn spots, but I don't have a read that suggests he is insane, so I think he gives up on the turn a good amount.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

I really don't like 1 since I don't really see what you're repping aside from exactly JT. I would look you up here light.

I don't care for hand 2 but I think your turn bet is good given that he just flatted the flop raise. I would expect him to b3bai with a FD/set/2pr since he donked the flop. If he does have a bare FD, he pretty much has to dump it since in his mind he can't have any fold equity, and he folds AJ here usually I would think.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

Well, in hand one, now that I think about it, I really dont like it, since when he checks the turn, you are firing and he is calling sometimes, so now you have put in two bets, and then you are tempted to shove river as a bluff, which you did, all based on some speculative flop call which is prob -EV

Re: Some bluffs!
 

dont like 1...2 could be OK w/ history but not a huge fan of it vs an unknown.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like 1 since I don't really see what you're repping aside from exactly JT. I would look you up here light.

I don't care for hand 2 but I think your turn bet is good given that he just flatted the flop raise. I would expect him to b3bai with a FD/set/2pr since he donked the flop. If he does have a bare FD, he pretty much has to dump it since in his mind he can't have any fold equity, and he folds AJ here usually I would think.

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I think that the 2nd bluff would get an Ace to fold the first time you do this, with no history. But I wouldn't try this line again as a bluff.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

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Disagree completely with regards to the second hand, especially the part bolded. Why is he terrible if he folds? I don't see why my line would be viewed as weak or bluffy, it's very consistent with various made hands I would play exactly the same. I also don't think anybody sane checkraises the turn with a draw, considering I have only $140 or so behind.

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before i reply to the above, hand 1 is awesome - those who think otherwise don't have enough variation in their games or don't play against people who vary their games.

now: i already know the results since you are so vehemently defending this play, but it is a [censored] terrible play to donk out on the flop, call a raise, and c/f turn. so much of your range are bluffs in that spot - you're not floating with hands that can't stand any heat, you are raising with them. furthermore, if he has a weakish hand, wouldn't he at least want to call your c-bet or c/r it, rather than donking out into the flop and making NOTHING on the occasions you just give up?

so as i said, unless he is a terrible tagfish who can't think ahead, you should be c/r'd ai a fair amount here super wide, and yes, some of that will include draws.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

1. if hes good he snap calls with a K
2. 99% sure he checkraised allin here.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. if hes good he snap calls with a K
2. 99% sure he checkraised allin here.

[/ QUOTE ]

gimmenutz doesn't even snap call a K there - note that villain cannot see hero's cards.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. if hes good he snap calls with a K
2. 99% sure he checkraised allin here.

[/ QUOTE ]

gimmenutz doesn't even snap call a K there - note that villain cannot see hero's cards.

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note..I'm so drunk and would call any of hero's [censored].

note 2. Upon looking at it it is an OK bluff.......

FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1




!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Re: Some bluffs!
 

lol, its like 1pm

Re: Some bluffs!
 

1 is fine, he's probably calling once with a K/Q with flush draw and planning to fold. 2 I hate.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly my thoughts

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]

now: i already know the results since you are so vehemently defending this play, but it is a [censored] terrible play to donk out on the flop, call a raise, and c/f turn. so much of your range are bluffs in that spot - you're not floating with hands that can't stand any heat, you are raising with them. furthermore, if he has a weakish hand, wouldn't he at least want to call your c-bet or c/r it, rather than donking out into the flop and making NOTHING on the occasions you just give up?

so as i said, unless he is a terrible tagfish who can't think ahead, you should be c/r'd ai a fair amount here super wide, and yes, some of that will include draws.

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I get what you're saying now, but not many players will bet/call this particular flop with anything but a marginalish hand, maaaaybe a draw but he probably wants to bet/3bet that? I mean, if he bet/calls this flop in general we can assume he probably isn't very good. I just don't think he will bet/call this flop with two pair or better, so unless he turned two pair his range is basically one pair and draws on the turn, and a strong turn bet should fold out that range often. That's how I feel anyways.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

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Triumph, perhaps you could comment more on why you love hand 1. From my view: a) it seems hero is repping a very small range. 88, KQ, JT (QQ, KK, AA, AK, etc., would seemingly RR pf); b) given that villain called turn, it seems like he has a decent made hand; c) the flush draw missed. You add all these together and I think its a recipe for villain calling w/ any A, and often a K. I mean really - what monsters are we supposed to have here given pf action? And on missed flush draws - people love to look you up.

Hand 2 seems ok, if this guy is capable of folding an A.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i love hand 1, f the haters.

hand 2 is pretty abysmal, i find myself getting cr'd every time in that spot on the turn. unless he is a total tagfish retard you are getting called and you are way behind obv, and he can always c/r with a draw here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Triumph, perhaps you could comment more on why you love hand 1. From my view: a) it seems hero is repping a very small range. 88, KQ, JT (QQ, KK, AA, AK, etc., would seemingly RR pf); b) given that villain called turn, it seems like he has a decent made hand; c) the flush draw missed. You add all these together and I think its a recipe for villain calling w/ any A, and often a K. I mean really - what monsters are we supposed to have here given pf action? And on missed flush draws - people love to look you up.

Hand 2 seems ok, if this guy is capable of folding an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the fact that people's ranges are so tight here is a mistake, and that's about all I'll say.

Re: Some bluffs!
 

Good discussion so far, time for results I suppose.

In hand one, villain folded. However, I changed my hole cards in this particular hand, one of them anyways. The 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was actually the 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so I had bottom set. I've recently been experimenting with taking passive flop lines with big hands on draw heavy boards against capable regulars because people will never put you on a big hand, and as a result will often double barrell with air and their marginal hands, and when raised on the turn after villain calls the flop on a drawy board, they will often interpret it as a semibluff and stack off light or rebluff with a draw of their own.

Hand 2 villain folded as well, and my hole cards were unaltered for this one.