Top set - when to stop raising?
 

No read on villain.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Villain calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Villain calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises</font>, Hero ?????

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

calls. standard

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I guess we're putting him on a made straight on the turn, rather than TT, AT or a lower set (99, 77) or some other two pair. It seems like hands we beat make up a larger part of his potential range here. Plus a lot of online - and perhaps live players) will wait for the turn to raise with a flopped set and sometimes two pair.

If he doesn't cold call with J8 or 86 then don't we have to put him on something we beat (and think he's putting us on top pair) and 3B the river.

I think three town the river.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

My thinking was this, he cold called with with 6 players behind him. I can't put him on J8s or 86s. I can only put him on two high cards or any PP with a very outside chance of a hand like 98s. Now if he was in late position and the pot was looking to be multi-way, then that is certainly in many players ranges.

Of course this is logical thought and thankfully many players at this level don't have that ability.

BO

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we're putting him on a made straight on the turn, rather than TT, AT or a lower set (99, 77) or some other two pair. It seems like hands we beat make up a larger part of his potential range here. Plus a lot of online - and perhaps live players) will wait for the turn to raise with a flopped set and sometimes two pair.

If he doesn't cold call with J8 or 86 then don't we have to put him on something we beat (and think he's putting us on top pair) and 3B the river.

I think three town the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

villain capped turn and then hero led into him on the river. he's still raising. I think this is the nuts way more often than a set. lol at two pair here, too.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

FWIW, here is another hand from the same session that gives an idea of what other players will pump with.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button :Villain raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button :Villain calls.

Flop: (16 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Villain caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Villain calls.

River: (18 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26 BB

Results below:
Villain has 9s Jc (two pair, jacks and nines).
Hero has Ks Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 26 BB.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain capped turn and then hero led into him on the river. he's still raising. I think this is the nuts way more often than a set. lol at two pair here, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm reraising the river, calling a cap, and expecting to be shown TT/AT or a slowplayed 99/77/A9/A7 well more than 50% of the time. If villain coldcalled PF w/86 or J8, then good for him.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain capped turn and then hero led into him on the river. he's still raising. I think this is the nuts way more often than a set. lol at two pair here, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm reraising the river, calling a cap, and expecting to be shown TT/AT or a slowplayed 99/77/A9/A7 well more than 50% of the time. If villain coldcalled PF w/86 or J8, then good for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

note to self: not good enough to comment on online play

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I jam the pot here everytime

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I suffer with M.U.B.S at the best of times, but even I am 3 towning this river.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I think anyone who says bet call or bet 3bet the river plays bad. Donking out here vs the turn capper is not standard at all.

If you capped the turn bet call, if he capped the turn Id go ahead and cr call the river. If u cr and get 3bet I dont think your up against a lower set enough (combo wise even discounted based on the cold call) to cap for value

Also for anyone who does say 3bet the river does ur answer change if the board was AJx AQx AKx with a T turn. I think 3betting there is -EV for sure.

and to chesspain you have to be ahead more than 50% of the time to 3bet the river, either way Id never take this line vs the turn capper donking out. I think its pretty poor and fwiw I dont think two pair raises ur donk very often (or even 77 99) so 3betting again is getting iffy and either way cr is a better line vs his range no matter what u do vs a 3bet (besides folding)

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

can't believe it took until the 10th reply to talk about the river bet [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calls. standard

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

A broadway board as described above changes everything. A large part of the reason for B/3B the river is dependent on the likelyhood (specifically lack there of) of the villan having cold called with the rubbish hands that complete the straight as opposed to the other hands that make sets lower than ours.

If they are not likely to have played those straight hands in the first place, but do like to get out of line with middle sets then we can more safely extract value on the river.

I guess it comes down to a read and hero's comfort with the play. Since we had no read at the beginning it is difficult. Does the second posted hand mid way through the thread back up the B/3B line?

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

Without reads I 3bet this river never.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I guess it comes down to low limit villans being able to play ATC even against a raise - which is great - but in this case makes the straight a distinct possibility/probability given the action and makes getting a showdown cheaply (once the river card doesn't pair the board) the best play.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without reads I 3bet this river never.

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...ok but why would you bet. he bets everything when checked to yet doesn't raise everything when you bet into him. honestly this is the most important aspect of the hand and only jstill talked about it. don't bet here unless you plan on going all the way.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without reads I 3bet this river never.

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i would jam this, this is a set over set situation

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Without reads I 3bet this river never.

[/ QUOTE ]
i would jam this, this is a set over set situation

[/ QUOTE ]

I think SS might be talking about the second hand posted in the thread by the OP.

Re: Top set - when to stop raising?
 

I have seen some wierd sh*t at these games so the hype aggression could be almost anything. I will tend to give the guy some credit and just call but this really smells like an A T suited or an underset. I think that you are good but would still just call, even with your money. He has cold called 2 btf and "should" have some type of a hand but none of the straight cards would be in my range. They are in the range of many of your opponents though. This is what makes the game so beatable. Do as One Outer says and Just Call.