Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/...d-children.htm
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...p;only&rss

Check out the pics in his gallery to see what happen to the Iraqi village.
Al Qaeda is adopting Viet Cong tactics. Those of you who are too young to know about Vietnam, the US strategy was to win the hearts-and-minds. The Viet Cong strategy was to terrorize the people into cooperating. We know which technique was more effective....

The main difference between Iraq and Vietname terror tactics is Al Qaeda is largely foreigners (Saudis, Yemenis, Gypos, etc...) and in Vietnam it was fellow Vietnamese during the terrorizing... Iraqis have a some sense of national identity and these terror tactics are back-firing as shown by Sunni Shieks joining the USA/UK to fight Al Qaeda...

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

I know for a fact that US soldiers slaugtered an entire village during Vietnam. They were ordered to do so. Every single person.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

So Iraq has turned into another vietnam and we are royally [censored]. Suplise!

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

The problem was, in Vietnam, that the Diem and Thieu administrations used terror to get the people to cooperate. As did the United States. After all, we dropped more bombs than were dropped in prior history on South Vietnam, the place we were supposed to be defending; we destroyed villages in order to "save" them. Not a great strategy for winning hearts and minds.

Jeffrey Race's book War Comes to Long An goes a long way toward explaining why the Communists won in Vietnam. It wasn't because of terror. At least not theirs.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

I note that one of the links says, "a horrifying story of radical Islamic depravity, ignored by a Western media that focuses exclusively on Western transgressions." I'm a mainstream media guy and I know a lot about radical Islamic depravity. They don't operate in my name with my tax dollars.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

Little Green Footballs?! LOL. There's an unbiased source.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

Michael Yon's blog is mandatory reading for anyone who cares about what's happening in Iraq today.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

"The Viet Cong strategy was to terrorize the people into cooperating."

Here is what a hamlet chief, appointed by the Diem government, the government we supported, said about his village in 1959:

"The Vietcong were very smart. If they knew that Binh's family had been ill-treated by the government, they would work on that weak point. Perhaps Binh had had money extorted by an official--in his heart he had to feel resentment. So they would come by from time to time and say, "You see how bad the government is, it calls itself nationalist, but in the end it steals your money . Are you just going to do nothing?" So, like fanning a flame, Binh's resentment would grow to anger, and his anger to hatred, and his hatred to revolt. Or maybe Xoai would be building a house. The Vietcong would come by and help him put it up, meanwhile talking about their life--no pay, living in the swamps, being shot at all the time. Naturally, Xoai would take pity on them, so the next time they came by and asked for a meal, he would invite them in. But when they took a meal it was not like our soldiers' way: burst in, demand food, sit around while it was being fixed, eat, and finally grab a couple of chickens and run off. Instead, the VC would go into the kitchen, clean the rice, and while they were waiting for it to cook, they would sweep the house, wash the dishes, and set the table. When the meal was over, they would clean up, and then thank everyone politely. So the owner of the house would think, 'The [government] soldiers come in here as if they owned the place, but this other fellow is very polite and helps me out'. Naturally, he let the Vietcong eat at his house all the time. That is how the Vietcong gained the people's support. They simply built on the opportunity we gave them."

A government National Assembly candidate:

"The election was very dishonest. Information and Civic Action cadres went around at noon when everyone was home napping and stuffed the ballot boxes. If the results still didn't come out right they were adjusted at district headquarters. [Didn't anyone complain?] Everyone was terrified of the government. For example, the principal of the local school failed to campaign "actively" for the government candidate. He was reprimanded severely and transferred somewhere else, and his family got in a lot of trouble too. [Was there torture?] Of course there was. The Cong An beat people and used the 'water treatment'. [The "water treatment" consisted of forcing water down a person's throat or else holding his head under water.] But there was nothing anyone could do. Everyone was too terrified."



"We know which technique was more effective."

Indeed.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

What about about bombing South Vietnam in 1952 at the behest of the French was intended to win their hearts and minds?

Ah.....You Speak of John F Kerry.
 

Ahhhhhh.....You Speak of John F Kerry and his confessed attrocities after joining the anti-Vietnam War movement. Yes, we all know Kerry is a scumbag.

The fact the American Democrat party accepts/elects such a person to their party speaks volumes about them.

Re: Ah.....You Speak of John F Kerry.
 

I heart partisan politics.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

I assume your point is the Vietcong sometimes used the carrot instead the whip.
If you are trying to portray the Vietcong as angels that never used murder and terror to gain cooperation....then you are mistaken.

The mass executions after the invasion of Hue showed the true colors of the Vietcong.

Re: Ah.....You Speak of John F Kerry.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhhhhh.....You Speak of John F Kerry and his confessed attrocities after joining the anti-Vietnam War movement. Yes, we all know Kerry is a scumbag.

The fact the American Democrat party accepts/elects such a person to their party speaks volumes about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Lai. Can't we all agree that neither side was a saint in the war? I do have a tendency to believe that proportionally speaking, American troops committed less atrocities than the Viet Cong. No evidence for it (don't think you could ever find out for sure, anyways).

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Yes, I'm trying to portray the Communist as angels. Very perceptive.

C'mon, Felix. Your point was that the terrorism of the Communists was what was instrumental in winning the war. That's just nonsense. And it was such nonsense that led us to fight that war in such an ignorant manner, and to support our own brand of thugs that often terrorized the population, as well as using terorist tactics ourselves. That, to me, is the thing that seems to be what is relevant to our incompetency in Iraq now: an ignorance and an hubris that bodes ill for our venture there and for the people of Iraq.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

OP,

Are you somehow trying to skew the fact that America is the aggressor here? That America is the bad guy? That America is the one who is traveling halfway around the world to invade and occupy another country?


First you must look at the actions of your 'own' soldiers before you have the right to speak about others'.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you are trying to portray the Vietcong as angels that never used murder and terror to gain cooperation....then you are mistaken.


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if you are trying to portray the US as never using murder or terror to gain cooperation....then you are mistaken.

dropping the bomb?
cia interventions?
illegal wars?
sponsoring and supporting various radical insurgencies and regimes overtime?
threatening genocide against Iran?

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dropping the bomb?
cia interventions?
illegal wars?
sponsoring and supporting various radical insurgencies and regimes overtime?
threatening genocide against Iran?

[/ QUOTE ]

A-Bomb:
Based on Japanese executions of American prisoners they should consider themselves lucky we did not drop 100 A-bombs. Payback is a bitch..... I do think the bombing of Dresden was a warcrime. The difference is the Germans for the most part honored the rules-of-war with the AMERICAN army(obviousy not with the Russians). But since Japan initiated systematic war crimes against the USA, then the USA was justified to retaliate with compound interest.... According to Adm Eliot Morrison's book on the battles in the Pacific, many US sailors stopped taking Japanese prisoners because their surrenders were largely a ruse to murder US servicemen. After a Japanese transport was sunk, US sailors would typically machine gun the surviving enemy troops in the water. As Tom Brokaw said, 'This was America's GREATEST generation'. They were just with honorable enemies and merciless with dishonorable enemies. Arabs/Pakistani/Persians are dishonorable enemies.....so I think the USA is justified in using more extreme methods against them.

CIA:
Ahhh...the good old days. Today's CIA is pathetic.

Illegal Wars:
Not sure what you are talking about. If congress authorizes the funds for a war, then it is legal. Only congress has the power to authorize war. The American people elect their congressman.

Sponsoring dictatorships/insurgences:
Nothing wrong with this. Sometimes you must choose between the lesser of two evils. If we can topple an evil regime and replace it with a less evil regime, then the world becomes a better place. Fighting communism was our main goal the last 50 years. Since communism has resulted in the deaths of 100+million people....then I think this money was well spent. Otherwise there would have been double the deaths....

Threatening genocide against Iran:
I have not heard of this officially. I have heard Iran threaten Israel with genocide. I have heard a Chi-Com general threaten the genocide of the Western USA should the USA honor their military alliance with Taiwan. I would like to see Iran bombed for their support of the insurgents in Iraq... If Iran uses a nuke against the USA/Israel then they will deserve destruction.....

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]


A-Bomb:
Based on Japanese executions of American prisoners they should consider themselves lucky we did not drop 100 A-bombs. Payback is a bitch..... I do think the bombing of Dresden was a warcrime. The difference is the Germans for the most part honored the rules-of-war with the AMERICAN army(obviousy not with the Russians). But since Japan initiated systematic war crimes against the USA, then the USA was justified to retaliate with compound interest.... According to Adm Eliot Morrison's book on the battles in the Pacific, many US sailors stopped taking Japanese prisoners because their surrenders were largely a ruse to murder US servicemen. After a Japanese transport was sunk, US sailors would typically machine gun the surviving enemy troops in the water. As Tom Brokaw said, 'This was America's GREATEST generation'. They were just with honorable enemies and merciless with dishonorable enemies. Arabs/Pakistani/Persians are dishonorable enemies.....so I think the USA is justified in using more extreme methods against them.


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Even if all your contentions about America/Japan are true, since some are disputable, how does this justify them killing tens of thousand of innocent civilians?

I thought the difference between us and them was that they dont value life but we do?

Is Osama bin Laden justified in killing American civilians for US persecution and meddling within the Arabian peninsula?

ill get to some other points after you address this.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

I'm trying to figure out some of the responses in this thread.

They seem to take the tone that America=BAD therefore the OP's specific links to the Al Queda atrocities are somehow OK?

Do people actually think like this? Justifying murder by saying America is "the oppressor"?

Is it not possible for everyone to say ANYONE committing these atrocities is horrid, whether done by US forces or Al Queda or Viet Cong or whoever?

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out some of the responses in this thread.

They seem to take the tone that America=BAD therefore the OP's specific links to the Al Queda atrocities are somehow OK?

Do people actually think like this? Justifying murder by saying America is "the oppressor"?

Is it not possible for everyone to say ANYONE committing these atrocities is horrid, whether done by US forces or Al Queda or Viet Cong or whoever?

[/ QUOTE ]


umm yes. thats exactly what we're trying to do. Both sides think they are freedom fighters but from the birds eye they both are murdering terrorist ideologues.

no one criticizing the OP said Al Qaeda was justified but the OP did at least imply that america was an angel and then justified in dropping a bomb on tens of thousands of innocent civilians while criticizing others of doing much less.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

Felix said that, based upon Japanese ill-treatment of prisoners of war, that Japan as lucky we didn't kills 10,000,000 civilians. He also said that it was Communist terrorism that won the Vietnam War; in fact, it was precisely terrorism on the part of the U.S. and it's client state that lost the Vietnam War.

I'm much more concerned when my government fails to live up to its principles than when another government or entity does bad things.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Felix said that, based upon Japanese ill-treatment of prisoners of war, that Japan as lucky we didn't kills 10,000,000 civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK Clearly this is extreme and deserving of response.

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He also said that it was Communist terrorism that won the Vietnam War; in fact, it was precisely terrorism on the part of the U.S. and it's client state that lost the Vietnam War.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully, most can see that both of these positions are extreme and flawed. The Vietnam war was a complex bucket of numerous swirling issues with Viet Cong Terror tactics, and US (or US sponsored) atrocities only 2 important numbers of the many issues.

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I'm much more concerned when my government fails to live up to its principles than when another government or entity does bad things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, that's understandable but doesn't absolve other groups from responsibility and, more importantly, public accountability for their atrocities. Hopefully one can see that by only condemning your own government's actions whilst absolving/ignoring/rationalizing others' actions it makes one look just as onesided/tunnel viewed as those one criticizes.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

"He also said that it was Communist terrorism that won the Vietnam War; in fact, it was precisely terrorism on the part of the U.S. and it's client state that lost the Vietnam War."

Invading nations (how can the U.S. not possibly be an aggressor nation in the Vietnam war? You can't defend your country in someone else's country...) never really lose wars, they either tie or win.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if all your contentions about America/Japan are true, since some are disputable, how does this justify them killing tens of thousand of innocent civilians?


[/ QUOTE ]
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military centers. These were legitimate targets. Any collateral damage was just part of war using WW2 technology. Using the A-Bomb also sent a message of fear to Japan of what could happen if they failed to surrender. Many argue the A-Bomb persuaded Japan to forgo fighting to the very end saving lives on both sides. Bombing Dresden which had no military value was a true atrocity in my mind. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not. Also leaflets were dropped warning Japan of these attacks.....they could have ordered an evacuation of these cities...


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thought the difference between us and them was that they dont value life but we do?

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I don't accept this premise. I would say some societies hold life cheaper than others but all value life. Besides, not all life is equal. I see nothing wrong with killing evil people (child molesters, murderers, islamo-fascist, etc..) Some life not only has no value....it has negative value and snuffing out these lives makes the world a better place...


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Is Osama bin Laden justified in killing American civilians for US persecution and meddling within the Arabian peninsula?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what persecution you speak of. As for meddling in the Arabian penninsula, again I'm not sure what you speak of. US troops were invited onto Saudi soil by the Saudi/Kuwait governments and OBL objected to this. OBL should have taken his beefs up with his govt....not the USA that was invited as an ally and guest to fight Iraq. Also it was the USA which supplied arms the Muslim fighters in Afghan to neutralize the aerial advantages the USSR had over the muslims. Gratitude is not a virtue many Arab muslims seem to possess.


[ QUOTE ]
ill get to some other points after you address this.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. Gimme your best shot....I'm not Borodog that runs away when someone challenges his beliefs....

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
....I'm not Borodog that runs away when someone challenges his beliefs....

[/ QUOTE ]
Irony, thy name is Felix_Nietsche.

You made my point......Thanks
 

Actually you made my point....Thanks
This links you provided show me addressing and debating. The Plame link was locked by Iron because we basically were arguing in circles.... I probably addressed you questions a dozen times. You just didn't like my answers....not my problem....

With Borodog, he advocated open borders. I said why I thought his position was silly and he said he was not going to answer my points.

Thanks again for providing evidence I engage others when they challenge my position and not run away.... And yes I still think Fitzfong is a scumbag for indicting Libby and letting Armitage walk with no consequences. Either the law was broken or it was not. Either Fitzfong was a partisan that let Armitage walk ....OR.... Plame did not meet the standards of being a covert agent under the law. And to prevent Iron from locking this thread it would be best to leave this issue alone...

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

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Any collateral damage was just part of war using WW2 technology.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't absolve them of responsibility. You say "collateral damage", they say "atrocity". Collateral damage is a bad term. It implies unfortunate but unavoidable happenstance. It is clearly avoidable.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sponsoring dictatorships/insurgences:
Nothing wrong with this. Sometimes you must choose between the lesser of two evils. If we can topple an evil regime and replace it with a less evil regime, then the world becomes a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]


wow

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

so what if the japanese developed the bomb before us, would they have been justified in using it? why or why not?

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so what if the japanese developed the bomb before us, would they have been justified in using it? why or why not?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by "justified".
But knowing:
1. The USA was working on an a-bomb as well and
2. The USA had access to more uranium they had and
3. Japan's entire strategy revolved around achieving a negotiated peace with the USA.....

It would have been irrational for Japan to initiate the use of the a-bomb. It would have been better to use the a-bomb as a deterrant to keep the USA from using the a-bomb on them... But then it was irrational for Japan to execute American prisoners because it installed great hatred and made a negotiated peace impossible...

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

By talking about one's own government's shortcomings one is neither ignoring, absolving, nor rationalizing other group's actions. It's the same thing as when my kid tells me "everyone is doing it." I hold him to a higher standard.

There's no question, in my judgment, that the way we and our client state prosecuted the war in Vietnam played a major role--probably the major role--in losing the war. The Communists had a strategy for victory.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

Hiroshima did contain a military base, used as a staging area for Southeast Asia. But the bomb was aimed at the center of the city, which had a civilian population of 350,000, not at the military base. The bomb was a continuation of the American policy of bombing civilian populations in Japan to undermine the morale of the enemy.

BTW, in Truman's announcwment of the bombing of Hiroshima, the phrase "Japanese Army base" was not included in any draft of the statement and was apparently inserted by General Groves into the speech at the last minute when he learned that the bomb had found its target.

General LeMay said, after the war, that "There are no innocent civilians. So it doesn't bother me so much to be kiilling the so-called innocent bystanders." The military base was not the reason the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima; it provided part of the justification. There were very few cities left in the country that hadn't already been conventionally bombed.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

"Those of you who are too young to know about Vietnam, the US strategy was to win the hearts-and-minds. The Viet Cong strategy was to terrorize the people into cooperating."

Holy [censored] are you indoctrinated.

Re: Iraqi Village Disappears....Where did the People Go?
 

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military centers.

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I must wonder what defintion of "military center" you are using that would exclude any major city in the US, Japan, Russia, Great Britain, or most of Europe.

Terrorism is a tactic of war. Generally it is an attack on civilians used to accomplish a goal that is either militarily impossible or deemed to be too costly.

The fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo and the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki rank as some of the greatest terrorist acts in modern times.