A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

The minraise behind me followed by a coldcall from the guy that limp/called preflop does not look good to me at all. There are no flush draws and while overpairs are possible I think its unlike that I'm up against 2 overpairs and 55 and 77 still have 10 and 6 clean outs respectively. Both players appear taggy in the two orbits I've been at the table. Haven't seen either of them have a pot go past the flop. Never played with either player before this session. What do you guys think the best line here is?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($149.20)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($50)</font>
MP2 ($67.20)
<font color="#C00000">MP3 ($54.80)</font>
CO ($29.20)
Button ($35.95)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($50)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($61)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $2.50, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($8.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $11</font>, UTG calls $11, Hero does not like this spot at all. Obviously fold is not an option at this point so its shove or call and then either call or fold to a turn shove or shove myself.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

Why is folding no option after your rational reasoning about this hand? I'd rather say that you should fold or shove right here and honestly this is one of the very very very few spots in which I wouldn't call someone a complete freak for letting it go. Calling here makes no sense IMO because there is simply only one card you want to see, even another 6 or 4 are not completely safe for you, especially keeping in mind your reads.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is folding no option after your rational reasoning about this hand? I'd rather say that you should fold or shove right here and honestly this is one of the very very very few spots in which I wouldn't call someone a complete freak for letting it go. Calling here makes no sense IMO because there is simply only one card you want to see, even another 6 or 4 are not completely safe for you, especially keeping in mind your reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold isn't an option because I'd feel really sick if they checked it down and I folded the best hand for $5.5 more or spiked a 3 and they gave action. I guess its more tilt prevention than anything else.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

Understand your reasoning but if they check down THAT hand I owe you some drinks, seriously!

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

azrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

push, you have a set, ldo.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
push, you have a set, ldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, chargers! Strange to see you write that... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
push, you have a set, ldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, thanks guys. I can read the board. I also do hate these threads, but usually the action is not this sick (pre and postflop) and I have bottomset AND I WAS THE PREFLOP RAISER. This changes things. If someone else had raised preflop then its the easiest allin ever like 95% of the set hands posted since they have an overpair most of the time. FWIW, I don't think my hand is more than 5% equity difference from AA in this spot and I think most of you would get away from that here.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
push, you have a set, ldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, chargers! Strange to see you write that... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but hes right though. You have a strong hand, calling isnt an option, and if you run into set over set then thems the breaks (especially when nobody is particuarly deep and villains hands arent real defined).

Get it in.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

So me raising preflop is the same as me calling a raise?

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
push, you have a set, ldo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, chargers! Strange to see you write that... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]i was mocking him, w/e.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

call, c/r AI the turn. you're lucky there are no FD's or you would get it in AI on the flop. As is, I would be very scared of UTG's cold call but mp3's raise doesn't mean much. you're an aggro player who cbets often and thus i'm raising the flop here with 77+.

i wouldn't be surprised if mp3 shuts down on the turn, but what does UTG have? 56s, 66,44? without reads it's hard to say, and that's why you c/r AI on the turn.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

Come on, I'm just kidding chargers...No offense.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Come on, I'm just kidding chargers...No offense.

[/ QUOTE ]none taken, i know i got a nitty image, and i dont care what ppl think.

In this hand I do push though or call and c/r the turn.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
call, c/r AI the turn. you're lucky there are no FD's or you would get it in AI on the flop. As is, I would be very scared of UTG's cold call but mp3's raise doesn't mean much. you're an aggro player who cbets often and thus i'm raising the flop here with 77+.

i wouldn't be surprised if mp3 shuts down on the turn, but what does UTG have? 56s, 66,44? without reads it's hard to say, and that's why you c/r AI on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line the most so far. Anyone gonna challenge him?

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

the min raise i'm pretty sure is 55. the straight makes no sense for taggy opponents. i think you have to shove. if it was set over set oh well thats poker. however, you will see fairly often situations like the 3rd guy decided to flat call with AA preflop and then couldn't get away from it because 2nd guy donk raised your predictable c-bet.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call, c/r AI the turn. you're lucky there are no FD's or you would get it in AI on the flop. As is, I would be very scared of UTG's cold call but mp3's raise doesn't mean much. you're an aggro player who cbets often and thus i'm raising the flop here with 77+.

i wouldn't be surprised if mp3 shuts down on the turn, but what does UTG have? 56s, 66,44? without reads it's hard to say, and that's why you c/r AI on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line the most so far. Anyone gonna challenge him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shove now. You most likely have the best hand. You mentioned you raised first-in, but you're only looking at one side of that. You might not be able to CRAI on the turn because there are a million reasons mp3 could just check behind. Don't forget all the cards that could kill your action, either. UTG looks like 99-QQ to me, so there's all those overs. I wouldn't be surprised if MP3 held something similar. Sure, the minraise could be 44 or 66, but I'm not folding here for 1 BI.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

I think shoving the flop makes it look like a poorly played AA given the raise and cold call.

That being said, if they have an overpair and you represent aces, it's a fold for them

The only hands that call are ones that beat aces (imo).. so they would also beat a set of 3s (on this board)

I'd probably still push, but I wouldn't like it

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

This is a push/fold situation in my opinion. Plenty of hands call here that we have beat, like random two-pairs, draws, and overpairs. I vote for a push.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

How would you play this hand if you were c/r'ed like this and you held AA?

I think your bottom set is about equal in value vs villain's range to AA since he is either ahead (higher set) or behind (overpair lower than AA). I think 2-pair and straights seem unlikely since he limp/called a raise OOP and that usually isn't a good idea with 46s or 57s.

So, play like AA. How would you play AA?

Edit:

lol, I wrote my response before reading the thread so I missed this,

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I don't think my hand is more than 5% equity difference from AA in this spot and I think most of you would get away from that here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. So, what would you do with AA? Call the raise and proceed with caution trying to get to the river? Or push? Just curious. Villain probably puts hero on an overpair or missed overcards like AK. So villain's limp call/raise is either testing the preflop raiser with a mid-overpair, or he has a set and is trying to pot-commit the overpair. Given that villain probably has a pair, and probably puts hero on the range of big pair or missed overcards, what's your best play?

Re-edit: I think call the raise and proceed with caution. Try to get to the showdown cheaply. That's what I'd do with AA.


3rd edit: The real issue in this hand is less about what we have, and more about what villain thinks we have and what he does against that range. If he thinks we have an overpair or AK, then he might c/r once, and check down after that (unless he's a tricky and/or crazy bluffer). If he has a set, he'll c/r, lead the turn (or crai), then push the river (if he didn't crai the turn) expecting AA/KK to pay him off. Since we want to exclude 2-pair and straights and draws from his range due to the preflop action, then we should call the c/r and see how the hand progresses. Check behind on the turn. Call a bet on the river. Possibly value bet on the end if the turn is check and river check since his unimproved mid-sized overpair probably calls under those circumstances.

Re: A legitimately sick bottomset spot? (NL50)
 

I shove here like every time