pictures of girls in threads
 

I think we should have a discussion about just this topic. In my kidshtter thread, Mike Haven deleted the pics of the girl and sent the thread back. He gave me a satisfactory explanation of people in the poker world perhaps knowing this girl, and it didn't bother me too much.

However, in the future if I post more trip reports (and I will), am I allowed to post rehosted pictures of girls or other people who aren't aware their pic is being posted in the internet?

Is this something only mods aren't allowed to do?

I'm not going to be too torn up if the decision is made that we can't, but I have the opinion that it should be allowed and is fine as long as the intention isn't to trainwreck someone and trainwrecking isn't encouraged. It's a lot of fun and makes a story a lot better.

-nation

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

if its your personal pic I dont see why you need permission to post it. You are allowed to do that on facebook and you can have an open profile. I just dont see any legal reasons why you shouldn't be allowed but I may be mistaken.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

nation,

"satisfactory explanation of people in the poker world perhaps knowing this girl"

WTF? I don't see any reason why the pics in your thread should have been deleted and strongly disagree w/ Mike's action, regardless of whether or not the statement above is true.

I think pictures in threads like that are excellent, and frankly just about the only thing that makes them interesting.

I also think that threads like that are classless, but that's a whole different issue.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pictures in threads like that are excellent, and frankly just about the only thing that makes them interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The masses clamor for pics in threads about "I banged X" and spend almost as much time dissecting the pic as they do addressing the rest of the thread. However, how or if a thread like that one opens 2+2 up to liability issues relative to the content of the thread (vivid descriptions of certain nuded-up activity) is something that I have no clue about. It clearly makes those threads way more interesting.

Also, it's unclear to me - and maybe some can comment - what sort of decorum a moderator of this forum should hold himself to. For example, is nation's thread less responsible in his current role as a mod than it was before he lost that survivor to Dominic? I've already got guys like adsman PMing me like "you've changed since you became a mod, I can tell you wonder if every post you make is crossing some sort of line", and I told him WTF but he's not entirely off.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

tug,

There's pretty much no legal liability at all.

As I said above, I think they are classless and it makes me think the poster is a sleazeball, but I don't think there's any reason for 2+2 to edit them at all unless the information is false and the person in question requests the thread be removed.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

My opinion is that photos of people are fine unless they are used in a matter that would likely hurt the person. So a photo with a post that says "OMG, check out the hottie that I went on a date with" is fine in my book, but "OMG look at the chick I nailed, she sat on my face and wiggled for hours" is probably offensive to her and her reputation so therefore it shouldn't be ok unless she was in on the thread. Its really in poor taste. People in some highschools have been expelled due to this type of behavior on My Space/Face Book so there is a social precedence that there are ramifications, of course I think that goes a bit far since all we have to do is discourage this.

What if the shoe was on the other foot, where some chick you weren't proud of sleeping with made a post with photos about her sexual experience with her? Now imagine if you where the girl. Does that help see why its not so cool? i don't know, maybe its something you come to terms with as you get older... I did some pretty dumb stuff when I was 21 too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
she sat on my face and wiggled for hours

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
social precedence

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

I vote wiggling, anyone who votes precedence is ghay.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

As you know, (from memory, without my rereading it), apart from the basic circumvention of the profanity filter by a moderator, the themed complaint in the previous discussion thread was because of the photos. No one seemed to care about the actual content, presumably owing to the general level of content in the forum to which it was posted, originally.

NT!(?) suggested sending it to Travel for you to edit out the multi-copied profanity circumventions, which seemed like a good idea to me. When you agreed by PM, I deleted the photos and shipped it, locked.

I gave my reason for deleting the very clear front face and body photograph, (and copies), of two girls, (in the context of the content of your OP), as that in this day and age, "everyone" plays poker, and, imo, there are very good odds that someone, somewhere, who knows one or both of these girls and who plays poker is highly likely to read Twoplustwo and see and recognise them, with embarrassing, (to say the least), real life consequences. (Poker is not like soccer, or baseball, or whatever, where there are many thousands of well-read forums where you could spend a lifetime browsing without bumping into someone you know. If you play poker and read associated forums you are very likely to read Twoplustwo, whoever or wherever in the entire world you are.)

I suggested that if you wanted to repost the photos during your editing, you should consider first blurring out their faces, entirely. At least there would be some arguable doubt if the girls' fathers or brothers or uncles or friends thought they recognised the girls' dresses.

Overall, my thinking on this leans towards the compassionate.

I don't think it is at all fair to post photos of someone, without their knowledge, within a thread of such graphically sexual content.

Whether or not there could be a case of libel is somewhat secondary to me owing to this, but I would imagine that it wouldn't be all that difficult to at least start a case against Twoplustwo, and cost Twoplustwo money and hassle, if such an easily identifiable person felt their reputation had been seriously damaged, say, because a high-profile employer saw the thread and fired the girl.

When there are no Rules in place, I've always thought it is reasonable to act as if the primary Rule would be, "We are all gentlemen", and I think this and other similar situations can be covered under such an umbrella with little objective argument.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it's unclear to me - and maybe some can comment - what sort of decorum a moderator of this forum should hold himself to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Generally, the standard of behavior for mods is the same as for users. NT! rips on users all the time, but that's ok because ripping on people is standard in OOT. The only real exception is that we shouldn't abuse our mod powers: don't post people's e-mail addresses, IP addresses or user notes. Personally, I like to be a little more civil than I otherwise would in my forum, but that's up to you.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

so, can i repost the pic?

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
so, can i repost the pic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask her if you may.

If she says ok, I'd bet there is no man here who will complain.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]

Also, it's unclear to me - and maybe some can comment - what sort of decorum a moderator of this forum should hold himself to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a big fan of having a second account for posting 'in the gray areas'. People can even know that our mod account and the second account are the same person. I think our mod account 'is an official representative of 2+2' and should follow the highest standards. I don't think our mod account should belittle other posters, dole out negative titles, link to 'soft porn' or other things that do not reflect well on 2+2. JMHO

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Jim Kuhn,

Is your other account Bi-Tor? Please tell me it's not.

Your solution is interesting but it also sounds like a huge PITA. If I were to log onto a second account, every post in the forums I was reading becomes marked read, which drives me crazy (this is why I have to set Firefox to auto-refresh every few minutes, because if I'm idle for ~45 minutes it does this automatically).

Although this forum doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic, I was hoping for more discussion on this. Maybe it will develop. In the meantime, I hope that a sig exception has been made for you and you don't type "Thank you, Jim Kuhn, Catfish4u, colonspadecolon-colondiamondcolon-colonclubcolon-colonheartcolon" every time because that just seems exhausting.

EDIT: guess you could just click the little icons below the box too. i r dumb. Still, it seems like a lot of work.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Jim,

"I am a big fan of having a second account for posting 'in the gray areas'. People can even know that our mod account and the second account are the same person. I think our mod account 'is an official representative of 2+2' and should follow the highest standards."

I disagree completely.

First off, if 2+2 considers mods to be "official reps" then the admins should say so.

And if you think mods should be held to a certain level of conduct, then imo mods should most definitely not be violating that code of conduct with a second account.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Mike,

"Ask her if you may."

I think you're making little sense here with the rationale behind your actions here.

Why are you singling out nation?

Pictures of people that could be considered embarrassing or associated with what could be considered embarrassing situations are posted on 2+2 all the time.

Do you think 2+2 policy should be to not allow that?

If so, time for you to do some massive cleaning house on BBV, BBV4L, OOT, etc.

Are you going to ask every poster like that the question you asked nation? And what if they say "yes, it's OK with that person"? Do you just accept that? Or do you need some confirmation from the pictured person.

And once you ban pictures, what about trip reports about embarrassing situations? And who gets to be morality police to determine what's embarrassing or not?

I really think 2+2 should either be completely hands-off on stuff like this (unless takedown requests are received for libelous (slanderous? whatever is right) or copyright violating matter) or should have a complete zero-tolerance policy about any threads of this nature. But deleting the pics based on the reasons you gave seems like a really, really bad decision to me.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

I must have missed the previous graphic posts about the sexual exploits of posters which also contained clear real life photographs of other allegedly involved parties, unbeknownst to those parties, and where those parties have no recourse to giving their version of events so I must be working with incomplete information, not knowing what has become acceptable on Twoplustwo in some of the forums I admit I read rarely.

Having said that, I still think there's "the line" we each have in our own minds, and, in my mind, this one crosses it. If you don't think it does, that's up to you and your conscience. Our levels of what is acceptable and what isn't are different. No big deal when we aren't working to set rules, and when it isn't a member of our real life circle whose reputation is being besmirched publicly for real or imagined private activities.

When I deleted the photographs, I did so because I thought there was complaint about them from other moderators, and I was moving the thread back into a public forum for Nation to edit the multi-copies of his thread title. I merely suggested that if he was going to repost the photos he should consider blurring out the faces. If he had chosen to repost them as before, that would be his decision, not mine. From my pov, I had taken the safe line, and, to paraphrase, "My hands are clean", if he felt that reposting was doing the right thing by his standards.

I have the perception that you would like to have cast iron rules for a number of things in relation to moderating these forums. I feel differently about this. I like the fact that to a large extent we are given a free hand by Mat, and that he keeps the placing of specific rules to a minimum. This forum is a place where we can debate our own thoughts on the various issues that come up from time to time, and, usually, resolve our differences in such individual cases - what is "good" for one situation may not necessarily be so for another similar one. I seem to remember that it was universally accepted by mods that "the" photoshop showing Tuff Fish's daughter in a compromising position, even though it was never intended to be thought of as being even vaguely real life, was way over the line. I'm a little surprised the subject post isn't universally accepted as being over the line, but I have stated my arguments, and if they are not accepted by all as being fair and reasonable, so be it.

I don't think it was a really, really bad decision to delete the photos in a locked thread while this debate was ongoing, while leaving the door wide open for them to be reposted by a fellow mod at his discretion. In fact, I would go so far as to say it was a really, really good decision in the circumstances. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

i just want to be clear that when i said i thought it was gross and sketchy for nation to post those pics, i wasn't asking for them to be taken down.

i'm not really taking a side in this. if i ran the forum, and i wasn't thinking about what is good for business or anything like that, i would say no way do i feel comfortable having that on my site. but if you asked the owners of this site the same question there are probably a lot of other things which wouldn't be here, but are today.

this, to me, falls somewhere right in that vicinity between 'would never do that myself' and 'not sure that i would prevent someone else from doing it.'

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Mike,

This is an example of where posting a pic is a no-no, in my opinion. At this point I think that is 90% a fake picture, but I pm'ed imsakidd and asked him what the deal was and if it was real and if he wanted it removed.

For BBV4l, my general rule (and I think the general rule for the rest of the offtopic forums) is that if posting pic enhances the quality of the thread and there is little to no chance of trainwreck then it is fair game. If anyone even remotely involved (someone's friend in the picture, the OP, Mat Sklansky) asks for it to be taken down it also gets shipped to the mod forum asap.

Example of ok: nation's thread
example of not ok: posting someone's personal information, facebook pictures, any link that can link someone in any way to them in real life.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Mike,

"I must have missed the previous graphic posts ... not knowing what has become acceptable on Twoplustwo in some of the forums I admit I read rarely."

Yes. What you describe has been the standard in BBV/BBV4L/OOT for a long, long time. Threads of that nature are among the most popular and most highly viewed threads in those forums.

Here's a recent thread.

Let me reiterate. There are threads and trip reports like this all the time in those forums, and have been for a long, long time.

"Our levels of what is acceptable and what isn't are different."

That's fine. It has been accepted that mods all have different standards and will set lines in their forums. But what you did was mod to your standards in a BBV4L thread. That's my problem with your actions. I think posting stuff like that is as sleazy and classless as you do. However, it has been well established on those forums that this is totally acceptable behavior.

"I did so because I thought there was complaint about them from other moderators"

The only complaint I saw was about the use of the word "kidsh-itter" in the title. What other complaints are you referring to?

"I have the perception that you would like to have cast iron rules for a number of things in relation to moderating these forums."

I think things should be consistent when it comes to mod actions, yes. Obviously there are judgement calls to be made, and mods should make them. Yes, Mat has kept rules to a minimum. But one rule he has made is that mods should mod within their forum. I don't agree with you imposing your morality on the BBV4L forum with your mod actions.

"while leaving the door wide open for them to be reposted by a fellow mod at his discretion."

That's not what you did originally, though. nation asked you if it was OK to repost them. You did not say "repost at your discretion." You said "ask her if you may."

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

i'm not a sleazebag

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

nation,

You can do (things I consider) sleazy things and not necessarily be a sleazebag. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, at least Mike now says it's OK to repost the pics if you feel comfortable doing so. I think the thread sucks without the pics!

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

ok im gonna repost. mike you better not go out of your way and try to find this girl and trainwreck me just to teach me a lesson.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Mike,

You did not answer a couple of questions. Here's the main one:

"Pictures of people that could be considered embarrassing or associated with what could be considered embarrassing situations are posted on 2+2 all the time.

Do you think 2+2 policy should be to not allow that?"

I'm asking that seriously, Mike, not just to make a point.

You initially removed the pics because "imo, there are very good odds that someone, somewhere, who knows one or both of these girls and who plays poker is highly likely to read Twoplustwo and see and recognise them, with embarrassing, (to say the least), real life consequences."

If that's the standard we go by, you've basically eliminated any embarrassing trip report pics from 2+2. That would be quite a policy change for the forums where that goes on.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Are these pics posted anywhere? One of the main reasons I agreed to be a mod is to see stuff that gets removed.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

I think Mike deleted them completely. However, feel free to peruse the Photobucket thread on the first page. Why was that junked anyway?

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

RR,

Nation reposted them in the BBV4L thread.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

RR,

i am so sleazy

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

someone's gotta entertain bbv4l

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Mike,

FYI, here are a handful of threads from BBV4L today - I don't read that forum and just did a quick scan of the front page, so these are not the best/worst or anything, just a few that jumped out:

Is he straight or gay? - pictures of a guy with gay/straight/bi poll

Ugliest college - pic in thread of a bunch of girls from his school referring to them as ugly

Mr. Slope's Sister - pics of a girl, check out the captions being put on there

Description of jacking off session

Would you? - picture of very young looking girl for discussion of whether or not people would have sex w/ her

Check out my new bong

This is a sampling of the type of stuff regularly being posted on 2+2.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

nation,

BTW, I thought the thread and pics were great and the chick is pretty cute, way to go!

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

The photobucket thread was moved here, ultimately, because some of the pictures were "pornographic"

We have been informed by our attornies that "rules" are the way to trouble. If we make an official ruling regarding pictures, that means we have to actively scan the site and remove things. As it stands now, we keep ourselves safe by simply responding to requests.

With all that said, I agree with Mike Haven and others that this behavior of posting pics unwanted is kinda sucky and I encourage mods to use their own judgment in deleting pictures they feel are hurtful in some way.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

MY THOUGHTS:

Posting random chick nobody knows and saying "rate" or "look how ugly", yeah, it's mean, but whatever.

Things that are weird: Posting chicks you know and saying "rate/busto/I railed her last night"

Things are wrong: Finding a picture of somebody's mom/sister/gf and posting it w/o permission.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
MY THOUGHTS:


Things are wrong: Finding a picture of somebody's mom/sister/gf and posting it w/o permission.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this is turning into a bbv4l-bash fest so here's my defense on keeping up that imsakidd's mom thread

[ QUOTE ]
Sent to: ImsaKidd
what's up with that? Is that just a giant level? Is that really your mom?

Anyway if any of this is true, lemme know if you want me to shut it down. I certainly wouldn't want my mom's pics getting around.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
From: ImsaKidd
Its not my mom (or anything even closely resembling her, which farm did they get that lady from?) and neither of us had anything to do with that pic.

I'm fine with it staying though.


[/ QUOTE ]

also 2 of el d's posts are from one of the crudest, worst poster in bbv4l right now (mr slope) and one is a phil s thread (thanks a lot NT)

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Gild,

I don't think anybody is "bashing" BBV4L as much as they're just pointing out what it is. It's not going to be to everybody's taste, and that's kinda the point of it.

FWIW- I wasn't thinking of that IMSAKID thread specifically.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

Gild,

Hey dude, I definitely do NOT mean to pick on BBV4L. I could have found tons of similar content in OOT, it's just far less percentage-wise, so would have taken me far longer to search out. I was simply pointing out to Mike what sort of content is pretty common on 2+2 to show that nation's post was not some way out there thing or anything like that.

Given what I perceive as the commonly accepted standards of 2+2 posting behavior, I don't think there's anything "wrong" with BBV4L, even though it's not exactly my thing. Sorry if it came off as some sort of BBV4L attack, that wasn't my intent at all.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
"while leaving the door wide open for them to be reposted by a fellow mod at his discretion."

That's not what you did originally, though. nation asked you if it was OK to repost them. You did not say "repost at your discretion." You said "ask her if you may."



[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I did originally. Ask nation to post my original PM if you don't believe me. My later "Ask her if you may" was more a facetious riposte than anything else.

The only reason I became involved in this at all was because NT! suggested shipping the thread to Travel so that nation himself could edit all the kidshtters, and I thought it was a good idea. Once I decided I'd follow that suggestion, I deleted the photos as, for some reason, I thought there was also complaint about them. Perhaps that was only in my own mind? I'll try to remember to read the first few posts again, later. However, as long as I wasn't (in effect) posting the photos in a public forum, if nation reposted them then that had "nothing to do with me".

That was the intended end of involvement for me, as far as I was concerned. The rest has just happened because nation misrepresented, (accidentally, I'm sure), what I did and said.

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]

also 2 of el d's posts are from one of the crudest, worst poster in bbv4l right now (mr slope) and one is a phil s thread (thanks a lot NT)

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry dude. send him to the lounge. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

oh and just for the record i like BBV4L a lot, although i think the crudeness has taken over a bit lately

Re: pictures of girls in threads
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, feel free to peruse the Photobucket thread on the first page. Why was that junked anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, what the hell.