Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Location: Casino Arizona in Scottsdale, AZ
Stakes: $20/$40
Players: Tight aggressive game. It’s fairly tight, although there are some weak spots. A super lag, but not a maniac is on the table…and he is playing a lot more hands than can possibly be profitable, but he is somehow up like 4 or 5 racks. I can only give it a poor ** of 5 stars. To be honest, I’m only playing to chat/play with Howard Beale. It’s chopping much too much for my tastes. In general only 2 or 3 to the flop.

Principal players:

BB – 30s white guy. He’s the super lag in this hand. Examples of how he plays:
(a) He’s 3-bet K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] pre-flop.
(b) He limped UTG with 98o and called a raise by Howard Beale in EP along with like 4 other cold-callers to see a flop of 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He bets into the field with top pair and practically begs Howard to clear the field with a raise. When an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes on the turn and SB donked out the obvious flush, he raised the two pair regardless of the flush that’s represented.
(c)When there was a loose raise from EP, and he called two-cold with his K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Then I 3-bet with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from the BB. On the flop of Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I bet, was raised by EP with A7o, and then he 3-bet his draw. So yeah, he’ll pump his draws.
(d) I raised from HJ with QQ, and get 3-bet by a strong aggressive older woman player (she is actually a poker host in Casino Arizona) in SB. Super lag in BB calls what he thought was just a single raise, but is then forced to put in 3. And then I cap it and he’s forced to put in 4 along with SB. The flop comes 974 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB checks, Super lag bets, I raise, SB folds, super lag 3-bets and I call. Turn is an offsuit 8, and he check-calls me. River is a blank, and he check-calls me again and I win.

MP – Me. (My stack is approximately $700 to start the hand)

Button – Passive weak loose player.

Preflop: (1.5 small bets, 9 players)

I raise in MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and am called by button. SB folds and BB looks at his cards and throws in 4 chips casually.

Flop: (6.5 small bets, 3 players) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB leads, I raise, Button calls 2 cold, BB 3-bets, I 4-bet, Button scrams, BB 5-bets, I 6-bet, BB 7-bets…

How far should this go?

Garland

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Uh I saw super lag and was like "keep raising" then I read the hands and this guy definitely doesn't seem super laggy at all and I think you've put in the appropriate action here to just call down.

Given that you've just called with 2nd nuts on the flop I really don't think there are any rivers you can raise short of a 9.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Going two or three bets on a street is far far different than going 7...although I know the results of the hand, I couldn't fathom going multiple bets on another street unless he shows weakness somehow.

As for your description of the poker host, I find her neither of these things. I think she is a fairly predictable player and easy to steal from, and she is welcome in my game anyday because she will rarely play back at me, and she finds odd spots to play back that are usually when she isn't ahead.

Like when I raised in 2nd position with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with one or two walkers, and she cold called behind me, and instantly mucked her pocket pair on a AKx flop, no imagination whatsoever. She floats that flop, and I am almost forced to check the turn, and she wins...

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

it seems like he'd go 3 bets and check the turn to lose to 1 pair.

so what does that say he'd do with T3s? T9s? 33? would he seriously call TT pf from the bb yet 3 bet K7s?

i'd say go somewhere over 10 bets. if he puts in the 11th bet i'd just call down from there.

but i DONT want him to 7 bet, have you call, and have him check call it down like he's done before.

i'd rather get 11 bets in on the flop.

so my vote is two more raises, unless the "casually" is a tell that you can say he's stronger and doesn't 3 bet his good hands...

i can't fathom stopping at 7 here as a player like this is EXACTLY who you want pumping the flop when you have the 2nd nuts. if he has top set, i lose a TON here.

Barron

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Based on your description of how he looked at his cards I think he's going to have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or two black aces which he screw played to trap you.

That being said, once he (or anyone else) gets past five bets, I just call down.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Like when I raised in 2nd position with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with one or two walkers, and she cold called behind me, and instantly mucked her pocket pair on a AKx flop, no imagination whatsoever. She floats that flop, and I am almost forced to check the turn, and she wins...

[/ QUOTE ]

whats wrong with this? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If I posted in late pos with 55 and called your raise, id play it the same way.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

I guess it keeps you out of trouble, but it seems to be giving up too easily for 1 bet when you already called 2 cold in a heads up pot with a marginal hand. My game is a lot higher variance, but I never fold a pair on the flop heads up, I let my opponent give me a chance to win the pot, not fold in a spot my opponent will bet close to 100% of the time.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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How far should this go?

Garland

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A few more raises before I even think about stopping. I'd put him on a big draw, or pair + a flush draw. The only real hand to worry about is tens, and it seems strange that he'd just call preflop, and also not check raise the flop w/ it. With a better read on his play as a super lag, I might be ok with putting in all $700.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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unless the "casually" is a tell that you can say he's stronger and doesn't 3 bet his good hands...

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Casually meaning he didn't think about 3-betting pre-flop at all.

Garland

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

I think 7bets is sufficient here. I am not sure the examples you gave indicate a super LAG. Call down from here. I guess AA, KK, TT, QJ of spades, and the nut flush draw are all still possibilities.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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unless the "casually" is a tell that you can say he's stronger and doesn't 3 bet his good hands...

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Casually meaning he didn't think about 3-betting pre-flop at all.

Garland

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i'd stick with my 11 bet theory.

raise again. if he raises. raise again. if he raises. call down.

this is a dream spot with a guy like this. make the most of it. if he has tens, he'll get a lot of money. his range though, given his previous actions and tendencies as you've described them doesn't appear to me to be narrowed in on top set just yet.

at 11 bets though, i' dhave to consider that he for some crazy reason just decided to call TT in the bb preflop and now went crazy with it.

Barron

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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I guess it keeps you out of trouble, but it seems to be giving up too easily for 1 bet when you already called 2 cold in a heads up pot with a marginal hand. My game is a lot higher variance, but I never fold a pair on the flop heads up, I let my opponent give me a chance to win the pot, not fold in a spot my opponent will bet close to 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if somehow you found yourself cold calling OTB with 55 after a TAG raised UTG+1, you'd continue on a AKx flop? Really????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It doesn't matter if he bets 100% of the time cuz his range is so far ahead of yours at this point.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess it keeps you out of trouble, but it seems to be giving up too easily for 1 bet when you already called 2 cold in a heads up pot with a marginal hand. My game is a lot higher variance, but I never fold a pair on the flop heads up, I let my opponent give me a chance to win the pot, not fold in a spot my opponent will bet close to 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if somehow you found yourself cold calling OTB with 55 after a TAG raised UTG+1, you'd continue on a AKx flop? Really????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It doesn't matter if he bets 100% of the time cuz his range is so far ahead of yours at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't get in that spot preflop...but if you are, why not give yourself a chance to outplay his QQ or JJ when he checks the turn...

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Personally, I stop at 6 or 7 unless there is a reason to continue (the other is drunk, a totally horrible player, crazy, etc.). In this case there was an additional reason to stop raising, I think, that you left out of your post. Perhaps you didn't remember it. I think that maybe you didn't catch it's import while being caught up in the action.

2 more things: I've seen the game better but I thought it was ok. Villain in this hand is very good for the game. He just ran insanely hot. Absolutely insanely hot. The other night, however, he was re-buying every 20 minutes.

It was very nice to meet you and I wish you all the best. Folks, if you come out to CAZ please let us locals know. Every single 2p2'r that I've met has been worth meeting. We can be proud of the community from what I've seen. Every player has a great attitude and observes what I consider proper poker etiquette and is fun to have at the table.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

He also called me a car mechanic last night...

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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The only real hand to worry about is tens, and it seems strange that he'd just call preflop, and also not check raise the flop w/ it.

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Actually he does lead out with his strong hands as well (doesn't slowplay), so it's not as strange for this guy.

Garland

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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I guess it keeps you out of trouble, but it seems to be giving up too easily for 1 bet when you already called 2 cold in a heads up pot with a marginal hand. My game is a lot higher variance, but I never fold a pair on the flop heads up, I let my opponent give me a chance to win the pot, not fold in a spot my opponent will bet close to 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if somehow you found yourself cold calling OTB with 55 after a TAG raised UTG+1, you'd continue on a AKx flop? Really????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It doesn't matter if he bets 100% of the time cuz his range is so far ahead of yours at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't get in that spot preflop...but if you are, why not give yourself a chance to outplay his QQ or JJ when he checks the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]Because it's really costly and won't work nearly often enough to be profitable. If you called with 55 hoping to catch a good flop, you didn't. You caught just about the worst flop you could imagine. Let it go.

I tend toward a more high-variance game as well (showdown monkey), but when a TAG cbets with AKx on board, you don't have to try to win every pot. If you fold and he shows a bluff, smile and tap the table.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

But since her hand was against me, I wouldn't call myself a straight forward TAG...I seem to mix it up more than most. But as I said originally, it does keep you out of trouble just by folding. So I see and agree with your side as well.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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He also called me a car mechanic last night...

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At least he said you're a BMW mechanic and offered you side-work. Those guys should make a decent paycheck, I'd think. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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In this case there was an additional reason to stop raising, I think, that you left out of your post. Perhaps you didn't remember it. I think that maybe you didn't catch it's import while being caught up in the action.


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Just curious, Howard, what are you referring to here?

thx,
dan

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

Did you see Howard play a hand worse than AK? Just wondering.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like when I raised in 2nd position with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with one or two walkers, and she cold called behind me, and instantly mucked her pocket pair on a AKx flop, no imagination whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big deal. As if she knew you had Q high.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

yeah this whole thread makes my head explode

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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i'd stick with my 11 bet theory.

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Your "11 bet theory" is arbitrary and doesn't make any logical sense.

The whole point here is that if the guy doesn't have TT, then he could easily have one of several draws, or even a super draw or combo draw. In some cases, even if he has 8 high, he might think he has the best of it on the flop with 2 cards to come. He might even be doing the right thing to go on endlessly even if he assigns some certain percentage chance of a set to your range.

But he might be getting frisky with a simple flush draw or straight draw, thinking he's doing the right thing, or the right table image thing. Who knows?

No one knows, and that's why it doesn't make a lot of sense to come up with a specific number of bets here.

But for sure, if he keeps it up on the turn when no draw comes in, then we know he can't think he's betting a draw for value any more.

On the flop, keep variance in mind. If you care, go a little lower, if not go a little higher.

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this case there was an additional reason to stop raising, I think, that you left out of your post. Perhaps you didn't remember it. I think that maybe you didn't catch it's import while being caught up in the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, Howard, what are you referring to here?

thx,
dan

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At about 7 bets villain looked at OP's chips and said something like: 'How much you got there? You want to go all-in? Anyway I'm not going to stop raising.' He'd already been shoveling the chips in as fast as he could. Anyway, OP stopped at 11 then called down. I don't know if it's my place to say so but Garland is a nice fellow and hopefully he won't mind if I mention that villain had the 10's.

To CG: Hah! I played that night as if I worked at a laundromat. Fold, fold, fold, fold, lose w/ JJ, fold, fold, fold, fold, lose again w/ JJ (I think I had Jacks 5 times), fold, fold, fold.........

It was a bad night for the good players.
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Live 20/40 Middle set, and lots of action...
 

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Did you see Howard play a hand worse than AK? Just wondering.

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Yeah, watch for the trip report in Brick and Mortar.

Garland

Thoughts...since results were already given
 

Thoughts:

There are a couple of people who said they wouldn't classify him as a "super-lag". Well, I distinctly remember saying he wasn't a maniac. But he definitely has a tendency to overplay his hands as demonstrated by the 98o and my QQ hand (come on, when a TAG SB woman 3-bets and I cap pre-flop and raise on the flop on a 9 high board, how can you possibly 3 bet with anything that can't beat my overpair?)

I omitted the fact villain wanted to shove around the 8 bet mark or so on purpose. I guess I should have figured it out, but I wasn't convinced he wasn't overplaying T9, 33 or a superdraw.

Maybe I just gave enough action. Maybe I gave him a bit too much action, but I guess I'm glad I didn't stack off, and I guess I'm happy this hand wasn't played in a no-limit format.

There was another hand where I wasn't sure if I pushed it too far or not far enough given my opponent's tendencies:

20/40 bottom set hand from 2/21/2006 vs "Action Joe" Nguyen

Garland