Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Seriously, what do they do? Decide the line-up? Call for a bunt a few times a game? Walk out onto the field and motion for a lefty to come in?

What is it that makes Joe Torre worth $5 million a year, or more? How is his skill set when it comes to managing, any different from a decent high school baseball team coach?

Compare this to football head coaches. I think they're worth every penny and truly lead their team.

Baseball managers sit on their butt and decide who to play today. Okay, that's something...but really...is it that difficult?? Is their knowledge that vastly superior than any one of you who knows baseball?

The Emperor is naked, dammit, and no one is seeing it.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

I think like 90% of SE posters already think this and say it often.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think like 90% of SE posters already think this and say it often.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd be awesome if a Baseball General Manager came out and said something like this, hiring some unknown to manage their team for $75,000 a year.

Really, in a world where Joe Girardi can replace Joe Torre, it must mean the job is not so special.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

A manager just has to perform the basic duties of a manager effectively. Anything on top of that is extra credit.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Managers prepare the team throughout the year. Much more important than their contribution during the game, esp. in the American League. When the Royals fired John Wathan I watched the same defense slowly deteriorate under Hal McRae. Same players, just no emphasis or guidance. It took a year before they really started to show a marked drop off. I'm sure the same goes for managers who are hitting or pitching geniuses, but filtered through their asst. coaches, etc.

They also set the tone for how the team will handle adversity. After that yeah, the actual game is a lot like poker. You just to prepare, make the best decision, but most of your success on a given day will come down to whether the cards fall your way.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Managers have little impact on actual games. Pretty much everyone knows this, and has for a while. My best guess is that owners who choose to pay 5 million for someone like Torre believe that managers can be excellent leaders/coaches to maximize the performance of their players.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could probably come up with a list of meaningful large and small decisions that my boss makes. So, lets hear your list of things baseball managers do. You seem to be aware of them.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think like 90% of SE posters already think this and say it often.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd be awesome if a Baseball General Manager came out and said something like this, hiring some unknown to manage their team for $75,000 a year.

Really, in a world where Joe Girardi can replace Joe Torre, it must mean the job is not so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, part of having a manager is having someone to talk to the media, and its also part of playing the game. And I dont mean baseball. If someone came out and paid some nobody 75k to run their team, they had ABSOLUTELY better win a [censored] of games, or fans are going to be PISSED. Even if its +EV from a winning standpoint (spend the money elsewhere) they simply cannot afford to be wrong.

But yeah I think that would be pretty sweet. Hard to know how the players would react though. Its entirely possible that the players think it matters, even if it doesnt. After all, players think they are on cold streaks or hot streaks even when they arent (or at least they say they do in interviews).

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think like 90% of SE posters already think this and say it often.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd be awesome if a Baseball General Manager came out and said something like this, hiring some unknown to manage their team for $75,000 a year.

Really, in a world where Joe Girardi can replace Joe Torre, it must mean the job is not so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

girardi has managed, and has a degree from some ivy league school

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your boss get paid a couple million bucks a year to do that? Just because their is a small supply of world class baseball players does not meant that there is an even smaller supply of world class baseball managers.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really, in a world where Joe Girardi can replace Joe Torre, it must mean the job is not so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

this... makes no sense. if a manager doesn't mean anything, who cares if he's replacing joe torre?

sigh

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is it that makes Joe Torre worth $5 million a year, or more?

[/ QUOTE ]

smartass answer: Steinbrenner's (or whoever owns the dodgers) willingness to pay that much.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

I cannot believe a team hasn't just hired Nate Silver and paid him far below the going rate

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

he'd never accept

edit: and I know you're joking, but this is one of those areas where you sorta see the benefits. Honestly, if Nate or some other stat head came into the clubhouse and started setting lineups, and bringing in closers in the 7th and [censored] like that, ballplayers would flip out.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Managers are overrated, but you can't put a nerd (no offense, Nate; I fall into this category as well) into the clubhouse and have him running a group of ballplayers who have been indoctrinated to believe a lot of total [censored]. You need someone who can communicate with them on their level to gain any modicum of respect.

Beyond that, yeah, there's not much managers have to do. Hiring any ex-ballplayer who will get respect is good enough; ensuring that they don't do stupid [censored] like bat Juan Pierre leadoff is a bonus.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Really, in a world where Joe Girardi can replace Joe Torre, it must mean the job is not so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

this... makes no sense. if a manager doesn't mean anything, who cares if he's replacing joe torre?

sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...exactly?

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
Managers are overrated, but you can't put a nerd (no offense, Nate; I fall into this category as well) into the clubhouse and have him running a group of ballplayers who have been indoctrinated to believe a lot of total [censored]. You need someone who can communicate with them on their level to gain any modicum of respect.

Beyond that, yeah, there's not much managers have to do. Hiring any ex-ballplayer who will get respect is good enough; ensuring that they don't do stupid [censored] like bat Juan Pierre leadoff is a bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, we really need a respected ex-ballplayer to talk to the team and a puppet master who knows things and talks to the ex-ballplayer through an ear piece

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your boss get paid a couple million bucks a year to do that? Just because their is a small supply of world class baseball players does not meant that there is an even smaller supply of world class baseball managers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the skill set and knowledge base you pay for, as well as ability to deal well with both players and media. There are not many people who have that experience that can represent the team so well.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Managers are overrated, but you can't put a nerd (no offense, Nate; I fall into this category as well) into the clubhouse and have him running a group of ballplayers who have been indoctrinated to believe a lot of total [censored]. You need someone who can communicate with them on their level to gain any modicum of respect.

Beyond that, yeah, there's not much managers have to do. Hiring any ex-ballplayer who will get respect is good enough; ensuring that they don't do stupid [censored] like bat Juan Pierre leadoff is a bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, we really need a respected ex-ballplayer to talk to the team and a puppet master who knows things and talks to the ex-ballplayer through an ear piece

[/ QUOTE ]

Beane would do this with Geren if it wasn't illegal for the GM to be in the dugout in any way, shape, or form.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

kyleb,
why is it illegal for the GM to be in the dugout?

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Just put on a uni,and a fake mustache/nose/glasses a la Bobby Valentine after he got the heave. Noone would be the wiser

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think like 90% of SE posters already think this and say it often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those 90% are wrong. It's just plain stupid to think a knowledgable baseball fan could step in to a Major League manager's job and handle all the dynamics of it.

I doubt many of those 90% have any clue how a sports team functions off the field, especially at the professional level.

The 90% think they can do the job because they could set a line-up, choose a starting pitcher, call for a relief, and maybe even make a double-switch. They can't do the job because they don't even know everything else a manager is responsible for.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
kyleb,
why is it illegal for the GM to be in the dugout?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. It's against the rules, though.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your boss get paid a couple million bucks a year to do that? Just because their is a small supply of world class baseball players does not meant that there is an even smaller supply of world class baseball managers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the skill set and knowledge base you pay for, as well as ability to deal well with both players and media. There are not many people who have that experience that can represent the team so well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, you're telling me that there is such a small supply of baseball managers that teams have no choice but to throw millions of dollars at a guy like Dusty Baker, not once, not twice, but three times? When there are thousands of people in this country qualified to work for NASA for far less pay than a MLB manager receives, I highly doubt that there are only fifty or so guys with the skill set to make a double switch and figure out bullpen assignments. It's just a hugely inefficient system.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
They can't do the job because they don't even know everything else a manager is responsible for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the people that have played college ball (and currently coach) that say it wouldn't be hard at all.

Your response should be "Blah blah college ball is not analogous to pro ball etc etc dealing with paid athletes here and so forth" which is just stupid if you think about it for 5 actual seconds.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
Managers have little impact on actual games. Pretty much everyone knows this, and has for a while. My best guess is that owners who choose to pay 5 million for someone like Torre believe that managers can be excellent leaders/coaches to maximize the performance of their players.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, this makes sense to me

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

To further expound on why Dynasty is wrong, the field manager is in charge of filling out a lineup card, giving his opinion to the front office about players in the minors and big leagues (how much weight it is given depends on the club - Oakland, basically nothing; San Francisco, a lot), tells the players to work with the hitting/pitching coaches, hits them fungoes and grounders, acts as their authority figure, and is in charge of all the other tertiary coaches (bench coach, hitting/pitching coaches, base coaches, etc).

Trust me when I say that a LOT of people are qualified for this job.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

How come I say something, someone else says the same damn thing, and they always get replied to? Always. I am a forum martyr.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
Really?

What does my boss do anyway? Just delegates assignments and organizes us, handles talking to other bosses, is approachable and has a knowledge base, designs projects...

Managers make the big decisions. They also make the smaller ones you don't know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your boss get paid a couple million bucks a year to do that? Just because their is a small supply of world class baseball players does not meant that there is an even smaller supply of world class baseball managers.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the skill set and knowledge base you pay for, as well as ability to deal well with both players and media. There are not many people who have that experience that can represent the team so well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, you're telling me that there is such a small supply of baseball managers that teams have no choice but to throw millions of dollars at a guy like Dusty Baker, not once, not twice, but three times? When there are thousands of people in this country qualified to work for NASA for far less pay than a MLB manager receives, I highly doubt that there are only fifty or so guys with the skill set to make a double switch and figure out bullpen assignments. It's just a hugely inefficient system.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow. great point! I'm even more convinced now...

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
How come I say something, someone else says the same damn thing, and they always get replied to? Always. I am a forum martyr.

[/ QUOTE ]

people (me) are freaked out by your avatar

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

the hardest part of the job is probably dealing with the media and the players. To some degree that makes ex-ballplayers/guys involved with baseball prime candidates.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

Jim Leyland said it best in 2006 when the Tigers started off white-hot: "I don't deserve none of the credit for this, just like I don't deserve all of the blame when we stink."

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They can't do the job because they don't even know everything else a manager is responsible for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the people that have played college ball (and currently coach) that say it wouldn't be hard at all.

Your response should be "Blah blah college ball is not analogous to pro ball etc etc dealing with paid athletes here and so forth" which is just stupid if you think about it for 5 actual seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was about to post this but I was waiting to see if you or Muresan (the two posters I'm aware of that also played college ball) beat me to it. I loved my college coach but I'm fairly positive he cost us wins and I could easily have handled the job. Of course few of the players would listen to me since I was a college kid at the time, but I've already acknowledged that aspect of the job being important and something you couldnt easily replace.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
How come I say something, someone else says the same damn thing, and they always get replied to? Always. I am a forum martyr.

[/ QUOTE ]

*crickets*

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
the hardest part of the job is probably dealing with the media and the players. To some degree that makes ex-ballplayers/guys involved with baseball prime candidates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, but only because all the current managers are exballplayers.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

oh yeah.. it's definitely a boys club. On the other hand, though, ex-ballplayers have spent time dealing with sportswriters and such. That's more what I was getting at. Why interview a bunch of Joe Schmoes to try and figure out if they'll get eaten alive out there, when you can just throw Jim Thome in the dugout, who's nice, good with the media, and everyone already loves?

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh yeah.. it's definitely a boys club. On the other hand, though, ex-ballplayers have spent time dealing with sportswriters and such. That's more what I was getting at. Why interview a bunch of Joe Schmoes to try and figure out if they'll get eaten alive out there, when you can just throw Jim Thome in the dugout, who's nice, good with the media, and everyone already loves?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, look at Ronald Reagan.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

i always thought joe torre should have a silent strategist since his his game decisions are so [censored] bad.

Re: Baseball managers are vastly overrated
 

[ QUOTE ]
i always thought joe torre should have a silent strategist since his his game decisions are so [censored] bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

One player to a hand, sir.