Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

Throwing game-selection caution to the wind, I find myself in this spot vs the illest, EM2.

I timed down a little pre (but not much) and quite a bit on the flop, for the record.

No idea what he thinks of my game, probably thinks i'm a little bit spewy but perhaps capable of making folds...

Poker Stars, $10/$20 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $2,435
UTG: $2,030
Hero (CO): $2,816
BTN: $2,105
SB: $1,338

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $60</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $50, <font color="red">BB raises to $300</font>, Hero calls $240, SB folds

Flop: ($660) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $540</font>, Hero calls $540

Turn: ($1,740) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $1,595 and is All-In</font>,

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

I think this is pretty close but the draws coming on the turn make me not want to fold, I'm pretty torn tho

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

i fold it, it seams asif he's got Jacks IMO.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

out of interest what makes it look like jacks more than kings, queens, aces?

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

fold

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

hes nittier than everyone thinks!

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

i don't really get the call on the flop if you don't have a plan for later. were you hoping he'd check turn? as played fold

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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out of interest what makes it look like jacks more than kings, queens, aces?

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lol

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

foldo

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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out of interest what makes it look like jacks more than kings, queens, aces?

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the jews stranglehold on our media obv

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

I think this is pretty close. Calling preflop and flop I really don't see how folding turn can be an option. So as played I think a call on turn is the best option in the long run. There is about 1750$ in the pot and we need to pay 1595$ so we only have to be right 1/3 to make this +EV. I belive that alot of players would follow up with an allin bet with AK/AQ given the line hero has choosen in the hand.

So to sum up I think it is very close and it depends alot on dynamic and history vs villian. However - I think the decission should be made on the flop. If you call there you should also call the turn imo. You will run into overpairs often, but also AK,AQ or air often enough to make this profitable.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

you are beat. fold flop.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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hes nittier than everyone thinks!

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both of them are, easy fold.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

is folding pre a crime?

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

it should be.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

fold the flop

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

i would play the same and now fold.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

call if you hate money or can look into his soul. o/w fold.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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hes nittier than everyone thinks!

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both of them are, easy fold.

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i don't know how em2 can possibly be nittier than everyone thinks, given how nitty the board perceives him.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

yeah but doesnt this board warrant thought processes that take a spiral down the "he knows that i know that he knows that i know that he knows"

when in reality em2 is shoving a finite range that has TT beat?

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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hes nittier than everyone thinks!

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both of them are, easy fold.

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i don't know how em2 can possibly be nittier than everyone thinks, given how nitty the board perceives him.

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yes, it's one of the great wonders of the world.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

i thought krantz was the illest????

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

Man this has gotta be a fold against Nitmaker, considering he is roughly 15/12 from my database. Although considering your hand is almost face up he could easily have aj/ak clubs and also the fact that everyone knows he plays very tight he could be doubarelling here although I have never caught him in such a bluff.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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i thought krantz was the illest????

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he was usurped

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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hes nittier than everyone thinks!

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both of them are, easy fold.

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i don't know how em2 can possibly be nittier than everyone thinks, given how nitty the board perceives him.

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yes, it's one of the great wonders of the world.

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Knew you'd be here for your regular troll joke.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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is folding pre a crime?

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no its clearly correct. good thing for EM2 no one will listen to us.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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is folding pre a crime?

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no its clearly correct. good thing for EM2 no one will listen to us.

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wait, you guys want to fold two tens here? joke?

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

i think folding pre flop is fine, folding the flop is good, and not folding the turn is spewtastic

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

lol at folding preflop.
and i think calling turn is pure spew. also it doesn't really matter if your opponent is like 'whoa u are folding 2 tens here!!!' because guess what, if he bluffs when he has AK u will stack him all the other times u have QQ KK AA.

For people saying autofold, which i think is right, especially considering player and board texture, what do u do with QQ? I mean i snap call and i'm like lol ship nizsl00ts holla but that doesn't really make sense because the hand is basically the same (EG i would be quite surprised if EM2 showed up with TT and if he played his JJ like this more often than a small % of the time i would be surprised), so i mean really you are calling QQ because you have to call a certain % of the time game theoretically and u might as well call your best hands. so at the end of the day if u have a slightly good read that he might be bluffing this time u should call TT and if you have a slight read that you think he wouldn't play JJ like this and never would bluff u should fold QQ or whatever.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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lol at folding preflop.
and i think calling turn is pure spew. also it doesn't really matter if your opponent is like 'whoa u are folding 2 tens here!!!' because guess what, if he bluffs when he has AK u will stack him all the other times u have QQ KK AA.

For people saying autofold, which i think is right, especially considering player and board texture, what do u do with QQ? I mean i snap call and i'm like lol ship nizsl00ts holla but that doesn't really make sense because the hand is basically the same (EG i would be quite surprised if EM2 showed up with TT and if he played his JJ like this more often than a small % of the time i would be surprised), so i mean really you are calling QQ because you have to call a certain % of the time game theoretically and u might as well call your best hands. so at the end of the day if u have a slightly good read that he might be bluffing this time u should call TT and if you have a slight read that you think he wouldn't play JJ like this and never would bluff u should fold QQ or whatever.

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Calling QQ-AA is purely a game theoretic thing, as you said, it makes no sense to call TT and fold QQ here so may as well randomize based on hand strength (unless you have some particular dynamic/flow based read that EM is going to be makng a move far more or less often in a certain spot).

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

If empire saw your hand, i dont think hed try to bluff you off it often. Since your hand is fairly face up, i think hes doing this much more often for value than for a straight bluff with overs or whatever, so id prob fold unless hes getting out of line a lot this session.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

yea, i thought that this was close at first, and now i think JJ is close and TT is a clear fold. i don't really agree that TT= QQ here, i really think he can have JJ here sometimes (i can't imagine how else he would play it?) and definitely def QQ frequently.

so, i think TT is a fold (but maybe close) and JJ is suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper close, and QQ is a snap insta call.

Anyways, i called, primarilyl bc of the FD coming on the turn, and because i tanked a long time on the flop to call (although that is almost never something that i put any stock in) and because i've called em2 a nit many times before, so i thought he might have put some stock in that.

he showed AQo and i held somehow.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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lol at folding preflop.
and i think calling turn is pure spew. also it doesn't really matter if your opponent is like 'whoa u are folding 2 tens here!!!' because guess what, if he bluffs when he has AK u will stack him all the other times u have QQ KK AA.

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lol at folding preflop. and then the board comes about as good as it possibly can and we fold the turn.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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lol at folding preflop.
and i think calling turn is pure spew. also it doesn't really matter if your opponent is like 'whoa u are folding 2 tens here!!!' because guess what, if he bluffs when he has AK u will stack him all the other times u have QQ KK AA.

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lol at folding preflop. and then the board comes about as good as it possibly can and we fold the turn.

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with all due respect, i think T 2 2 or T T 4 would have been better.

i also still contain that folding preflop is kind of funny, and at least a little bit nitty- you can make a better case if i have like 95 bbs bc i forgot to reload.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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lol at folding preflop. and then the board comes about as good as it possibly can and we fold the turn.

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with all due respect, this comment is completely retarded.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

The thing is, are you calling 88 here? AQ? Are you shoving this flop with QQ? It seems lke your flop call range is so well defined and so small that it's too easy to play against. Obviously there's a chance you "outplay" him by correctly guessing his frequencies, but the fact that he is the agressor in this spot means that the balance is weighed extremely heavily in his favor (in that his mistakes always at least have some fairly decent probability of winning him a huge pot, yours end up losing always).

It might sound retarded but pitching TT pf just for game theoretic reasons can't be that bad... either that or shove this flop, or never shove flop, but those both seem even worse.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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The thing is, are you calling 88 here? AQ? Are you shoving this flop with QQ? It seems lke your flop call range is so well defined and so small that it's too easy to play against. Obviously there's a chance you "outplay" him by correctly guessing his frequencies, but the fact that he is the agressor in this spot means that the balance is weighed extremely heavily in his favor (in that his mistakes always at least have some fairly decent probability of winning him a huge pot, yours end up losing always).

It might sound retarded but pitching TT pf just for game theoretic reasons can't be that bad... either that or shove this flop, or never shove flop, but those both seem even worse.

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good post, lots of good points here. against em2 hes never makin a ton of mistakes here

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

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lol at folding preflop. and then the board comes about as good as it possibly can and we fold the turn.

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Yes, because his range doesn't change at all with the flopbet and the turnpush.

Re: Standard Squeeze spot vs THE ILLEST
 

Uh, if his range is really that narrowed then we don't get nearly the right odds to call pf but it's so close that calling pre is not a mistake (depends on how often he squeezes light).
If he is giving up with AK and bluffs a lot on the flop then I like a flop fold.
I just don't understand how someone like EM2 can be very good at one hand and be that transparent on the other..
I mean if you have to fold everything except for (jj) QQ+ then why shouldn't he push a wide range of hands on the turn?
You will barely ever have KK-AA and QQ and maybe JJ are the hands that will call him so by pushing AK always on the turn he is balancing his lines with QQ+ plus turning his semibluff into a +EV longtermplay because you will fold too many combinations that have him in bad shape.

I just cannot believe he is such a nit..