AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

<font color="blue"> UTG is relatively unknown. he sat down just recently but seems tight/TAGish. proably decent - never limps, hasnt got out of line or shown down any crap in like 65 hands

main villain is SB. hes a typical ABC TAGfish and probably a marginal winner or slight loser(MuckeDBoy on stars if you know him).
He runs 20/12/1.5 over a large sample and ive played with him lots over the past 2 weeks. He seems okish postflop, but plays pretty timid/passive. I dont recall him ever showing down a bluff or semibluff. He doesnt get stacked very often because he seems to have monsters whenever his stack goes in, but he loses lots of small to medium pots.

I had been playing 25/20ish, taking stabs at lots of pots that looked like nobody wanted them, and splashing around quite a bit in general, but had shown down the goods for the most part when signifigant money went in. Villain knows im more solid than the average stars donk. </font>

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $136.05
BTN: $100
SB: $144.10
BB: $62.80
UTG: $104.50
MP: $153.30

Pre-Flop: Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif dealt to Hero (CO)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $4</font>, MP folds, Hero calls $4, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds
<font color="blue">sometimes i 3bet AQ here sometimes not. UTG seemed tight and was new, so i just called. doesnt really matter, and i didnt mind playing a multiway pot </font>

Flop: ($13) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $12</font>, SB calls $12, UTG folds
<font color="blue"> so villain has a draw, or a Q, or a boat? am i missing anything?</font>

Turn: ($37) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $25</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $60</font>, HERO wishes he were out golfing
<font color="blue"> i probably couldve bet the turn a bit harder, but regardless, thats is one cluster [censored] of a turn card.
i have ~100bb's left... what now?</font>

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

There's a fair chance you're probably behind if he's timid postflop. Call and re-evaluate river, give yourself a chance to hit one of your ten-ish outs.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

I agree with bluebear, I think you're behind but can't decide if it's 44 or a flush, flush obv more likely. Getting about 3.5:1 on a call though and you will certainly get enough when you hit your boat to call here. I think I fold a river push though UI for 65bb more.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

holy [censored] what a terrible card... i think i call and hope to fill on river. fold to a river push unimproved

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

what do we put villain on? Given that range is betting the turn appropriate?

Given your turn bet:

Is he ever raising a worse hand on the turn here? If not then fold.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

pretty easy call not sure what the problem is.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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what do we put villain on? Given that range is betting the turn appropriate?

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thats a good question... given that villains range is polarized towards
(1) small pockets pairs (ie. 44) and
(2) big suited broadways (made flushes + QX) should i even bet this turn?
i think if i had the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] instead of the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] it would be a much clearer turn check

if i check behind on turn do i call a potsized river bet on a blank?
and if checked to us do we b/f river?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

call and re-evaulate river.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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pretty easy call not sure what the problem is.

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what? calling seems like the worst play. this is a clear shove or fold imo.
villain is always gonna fire a huge river bet, our hand is exrtememly unlikely to improve, and if we do have the best hand many river cards kill our action or give villain hte best hand.

...unless you meant call the river if we check the turn

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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pretty easy call not sure what the problem is.

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what? calling seems like the worst play. this is a clear shove or fold imo.
villain is always gonna fire a huge river bet, our hand is exrtememly unlikely to improve, and if we do have the best hand many river cards kill our action or give villain hte best hand.

...unless you meant call the river if we check the turn

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with 7-10 outs Calling &gt;&gt;&gt; folding, because if you hit you will get the rest of his stack unless it's a Queen.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

shoving the turn is spew.. a non-spade turn maybe. but definitely not Js.. call/re-eval.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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with 7-10 outs Calling &gt;&gt;&gt; folding, because if you hit you will get the rest of his stack unless it's a Queen.

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why do you think we have 7-10 outs? what about the times when were drawing to 2 outs? the only river cards were happy calling a shove with are J's and A's

and if he has a flsuh and the board does double pair were obv not getting paid off.. so do we have odds to call teh raise?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

I check turn, call a decent bet on the river or valuebet if he checks.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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with 7-10 outs Calling &gt;&gt;&gt; folding, because if you hit you will get the rest of his stack unless it's a Queen.

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why do you think we have 7-10 outs? what about the times when were drawing to 2 outs? the only river cards were happy calling a shove with are J's and A's

and if he has a flsuh and the board does double pair were obv not getting paid off.. so do we have odds to call teh raise?

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when are we ever drawing to 2 outs, even against QJ we have 3

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

anyone check the turn back?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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when are we ever drawing to 2 outs, even against QJ we have 3

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actually 5 vs QJ... 3 A's, 2 J's.:p


but you get my point. so do we have odds to draw, considering we rarely, if ever, get paid off when we hit an "out"?
or are we ever ahead now?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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anyone check the turn back?

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god no

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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when are we ever drawing to 2 outs, even against QJ we have 3

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actually 5 vs QJ... 3 A's, 2 J's.
but you get my point. so do we have odds to draw, considering we rarely, if ever, get paid off when we hit an "out"?
or are we ever ahead now?

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whoops, my mistake.

but no, i dont get your point. theres a big difference between having 5-10 outs (or being ahead) and having 2.

we could have the best hand, but for simplicities sake, lets estimate that we're always drawing and have 9 outs, getting 3.5-1 immediate. we're 4.1-1 to make the hand so we need to make up what, another 30 on the river?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

well i think 9 is really optimistic but thats not a big deal...
i dont really understand the logic here. well i do, but it just seems dumb to call the turn and leave like just 65BB's behind.

so lets say we miss on the the river. we now have less than $65 and the pot will be huge, (37 + 60 + 60 = $157)
when villain shoves, and he WILL shove on any blank, ( 157 + 65 = $222) we need to call ~65 to win $222 so are we really going to fold???? c'mon.

seems like one of those spots where making a marginally bad decision on one street can cost us much more later in the hand because we'll be getting such "good odds" - something i try very hard not to do, but often fail at

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

if youre willing to fold hte turn, why wouldnt you be willing to call and fold the river UI despite the "good" odds?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

that really isnt a sound argument

ok, lets say villain shoved the turn.
are we calling then?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

why isnt it a sound argument? if you were beat often enough on the turn to fold, you're still beat the same amount of the time except your equity against his range is actually worse since you blanked.

on the turn, if he shoved i personally would probably stack off. but im really stubborn about folding in these spots and it could be -EV. im just never confident enough to fold, and you dont have to win it every time anyway.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

what hands are you putting him on?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

flushes, probably QTs+, sometimes 44, sometimes JJ


im pretty tired so im going to bed, i could be convinced that this is a fold but you're gonna have to give me some compelling arguments to wake up to. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] maybe if someone could do some pokerstoving based on that range i just gave it would help...im too lazy to do all the different flush combos.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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anyone check the turn back?

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god no

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Explain yourself tubasteve, What are you putting villain on here where betting the turn is correct? How many Qx hands are in his overcalling range pf? What is he likely calling our flop bet with?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

agreed w/ shpanko. i think a turn check has to at least be considered here. honestly, i think he c/r-es any Q on the flop and the amount of Qs in his range are slim. KQs/QJs? v. a tighter passive reg, i doubt we'll be getting 3 streets of value v. like...TT or whatever.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

Those were my thoughts. I feel like villain either has:

1.) Spades and is going to c/r

or

2.) A mid range pocket pair like 77-TT


If he has a worse Q he's usually c/r'ing the flop or leading the turn imo. That's why I seriously consider a turn check.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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agreed w/ shpanko. i think a turn check has to at least be considered here. honestly, i think he c/r-es any Q on the flop and the amount of Qs in his range are slim. KQs/QJs? v. a tighter passive reg, i doubt we'll be getting 3 streets of value v. like...TT or whatever.

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Pot control FTW. We are getting value from almost nothing on the turn, and we are protecting vs. almost nothing.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

Me and Pineapple rarely agree so you know that turn check is prob a good line [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

I also agree with checking the turn.

Think about how many combos of Q he can have. AT BEST around 10?

Compare this to the combos of flushes and boats. Probably 25+

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

i agree that turn check is probably marginally best, and definitely not terrible.
for those saying to call and try to improve, what are we in this spot (hero bets turn and is raised) if we hold 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

Check turn.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

[ QUOTE ]
i agree that turn check is probably marginally best, and definitely not terrible.
for those saying to call and try to improve, what are we in this spot (hero bets turn and is raised) if we hold 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

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Same line but different cards? You are ahead of virtually nothing unless I am misunderstanding something or Villain is an idiot (which might be the case of course). In both cases Villain's line just doesn't make much sense with a random Queen.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

thanks for all the replies everyone. i ended up folding the turn so i didnt get to see what he had. i was ok with my fold, but didnt like the turn bet itself in retrospect so thats why i posted the hand.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

Check the turn. And just call a river bet if you don't make your boat.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

Hello. I had A5s, nice fold

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

on flop, this villain can also have JJ-88 as well.

As played call his turn raise. Checking turn initially is also an option.

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

I am the villian and I had As5s !

Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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I check turn, call a decent bet on the river or valuebet if he checks.

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Re: AQs vs a Reg - i hate making big folds
 

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I am the villian and I had As5s !

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MuckeD:
nh.
is calling in BB with AXs standard for you?