stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

Seat 5 is unknown. Seat 4 is a very bad and passive calling station.

I think 3-betting 5th is wrong. Getting it HU with the flush gains me nothing, especially with spades so dead. With my low pretty safe against the 866, shouldn't I just call the raise on 5th to encourage him to stay in?

7 Card Stud High-Low ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.60 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

5th Street - (5.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___raises___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (14.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

River - (16.30 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (18.30 BB - $36.60)

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

yea i don't like your 5th raise. unless he is really bad, seat 5 has a flush so you wanna keep seat 4 in. seat 4 will def call one more bet but fold for 2.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
yea i don't like your 5th raise. unless he is really bad, seat 5 has a flush so you wanna keep seat 4 in. seat 4 will def call one more bet but fold for 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true; also relevant is that seat 5 could very well be freerolling you if he has even one unpaired low card 6 or lower in the hole. While I'd put in a third bet heads up, I'd back off pretty quickly after that, and with someone else in the pot that's another reason not to raise. (runner-runner flush outs don't really count for you)

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

What's with the flat calls on 6th and 7th????

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I think third should usually be a raise, allthough calling is sometimes fine.

Out of all the hands you post i think your biggest fault is not raising third.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I would probably complete on third. I wouldn't raise fourth if I thought that it would knock people out, but you got everyone to call, so I can't argue with that. Definitely three-bet fifth. There's no reason that the other guy has to have a flush. If the third man folds, that increases your scoop chances. And if the other guy does have a flush, the only way to really make any money off of the third man is to make him call a whole bunch of bets.

I also think that sixth is a raise. There's at least some chance that the other guy is a donk who is playing his board and not really thinking about what you have. If you really believe in your heart of hearts that he had a made flush on fifth, then he must specifically have A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the hole to be free-rolling on you. If he happens to have one diamond down but is free-rolling on you for low, it means that he called two bets cold in a tiny pot on fourth with a three-card flush and a three-card low. If he's bad enough to make this call, he's probably bad enough to have all kinds of things that you're free-rolling on. I think that it is far more likely that you have the upper hand than he. Get your money in there.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

That he check-raised the field on 5th and capped vs my scary board, I don't see how he can't have a flush.

You're probably right about 6th, but once he caught yet another diamond I felt I was drawing dead for high and with outside chance I'm getting freerolled for low (he could also have A5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 35[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] since we don't know the 5 is still in the stub).

Re: 6th and 7th
From his perspective, he has to know I have a low and very likely a straight, yet he keeps betting into me. Would he really do this without a flush? Consequently, he must have some kind of draw to a low as well since he doesn't really know the quality of my low hand. But he also doesn't care since he knows he has the high locked up.

Putting it all together, I concluded that he was freerolling me more often that I was him. Is this just paranoia on my part?

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I think it's good except that I would complete 3rd. That Qd on 6th definatly gives him a flush (5th he might be raising with a low draw and nut flush draw, althoughhe could very well have a flush there) and since you have no direct outs to a flush and he has two weel cards showing he is the one that might be freerolling you if he has two wheelcards in the hole (most likey with the Ad. So 6th and 7th are definatly not a raise.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's with the flat calls on 6th and 7th????

[/ QUOTE ]

wondering the same thing.. i wouldnt let him slide for 1 bet on 6th

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

lol 1/2 I'd cap this on fifth every time. Because it's now obvious he has a flush on sixth by now I'd probably just c/c the rest of the way b/c of the slight chance he's freerolling you for low. I can't expect people to fold to raises at these limits because they tend not to even with garbage hands at this point.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

Sorry, there are a few ways he can be free-rolling on you on sixth. But only a few. I still think that it's far more likely that you are free-rolling on him. So yeah, you're paranoid. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You missed some bets and that's why you posted this hand, right?

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, there are a few ways he can be free-rolling on you on sixth. But only a few. I still think that it's far more likely that you are free-rolling on him. So yeah, you're paranoid. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point. What hand could he reasonably have on 5th, let alone 6th, that isn't a flush? I don't see any possible way he can bet into me on 6th without it. The closest thing maybe is rolled Fours which hurts my straight likelihood, but that would be retarded to bet it when he's finally HU and not earlier in a 4-way pot, and especially considering my jamming on 5th.

[ QUOTE ]

You missed some bets and that's why you posted this hand, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I missed out on some bets in a different way than what you're alluding to; in that with my made hand, I want to pull in Seat 4 rather than push him out. Let him chase to whatever he's drawing to. His hand could conceivably develop into a scary high board and I could enjoy lots of bets going in on 6th and 7th if he catches an 8 or 6. (Granted I know this player pretty well and very likely had a low draw, but it's still a few extra bets the other guy and I would likely split up since my 6 is unlikely to be caught up to).

When I wrote up my OP, most of the other streets seemed pretty automatic (3rd is debatable) since it seemed abundantly clear to me that he had a flush on 6th. From his perspective, I look like I could have a low hand of any quality because I could be raising to force out the only other draw in the hand. If I have 87653 on 6th and him a flush, that makes his range of possible hole cards that he at least thinks he's freerolling with even wider, but the chance I'm FRing him about nil. Regardless of the results [he had <font color="white">Ad 7d 5c</font>], I still think raising 6th is wrong.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I have no comment on the hand except that, yeah, it looks like you pushed out people who you'd rather have in and got yourself heads up with the high hand.

The real reason I posted is that I think you get better discussion from this hand if you end it at 5th. That 5d can't help but influence people and 6th doesn't help either, because once you see 6th now you REALLY wish you'd kept those other people in.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I think jamming 5th is good. The 3 diamonds don't have to be a flush. He could have a number of hands. Remember, he can't see that you have a straight.

People play this game really badly. Go ahead and raise anytime you have a lock to half the pot and some chance to scoop. Sometimes the people getting jammed will call anyway, and you'll make even more.

Re: stud/8 - 5th street situation
 

I complete on third. You've got a great low starter, your straight cards are live, and you are in what looks like it is going to be a multiway pot.

I reraise on fifth. Your low is strong, and as far as you know your straight may still be good as well. Losing the other passenger is unfortunate, but not a disaster.

On sixth, given the action, I agree that the villain almost certainly has a flush, and could be freerolling you. I like the check-calls there and on the river.

Complete on third street more often.