Standard folds?
 

Villian 21/10/0.26 over 36 hands....

I think a can safely fold on this flop, right?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: 3BB


Villain: 72/20/0.62
notes: cap KJs, silly 3 barrel bluff

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 3.25BB

I have third pair, a draw to two pair and straight and Villian plays weird. Calldown is the play?

Re: Standard folds?
 

1. I think this one is fine.

2. The board sucks, but against a player this retarded I call down any pair.

Re: Standard folds?
 

First one is fine, second why not raise? You have some showdown value, a draw and can fold to any further resistance.

Re: Standard folds?
 

4-bet/cap the preflop action in hand 1 because a) you may have the better hand, and b) this gives you the best chance of leading on the flop. You need to flop a set or make him fold, IMO, unless he'll call down with a big ace.

In hand 2, I would 3-bet preflop and/or lead on the flop.

Given the preflop action, I think you played fine after the flop in hand 1...

Re: Standard folds?
 

Considering you have 9 cards to improve in hand 2 and villain is retard the fold is pretty bad. I would just call down

Re: Standard folds?
 

in hand 1 I will take a look at the turn, we still beat a lot of SB defense hands

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
in hand 1 I will take a look at the turn, we still beat a lot of SB defense hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya. I will call the flop and try to figure out whether to fold the turn or fold the river. I am not calling down a 3-barrel. Bet if checked to on the turn obviously

Re: Standard folds?
 

1. Sure, the board is coordinated but the cards is not really likely to have hit his 3-betting range. Think i peel this flop and calldown a none A, K, or Q without a reed.
But the flip side to this is that you don't really know were you are in the hand and it's a RIO situation.


2. Calldown. With his silly bluffs he probably bets a lot of hands u beat on the turn.
If he's not a retard is this a standard fold?

Re: Standard folds?
 

I don't really see what you beat on this turn in hand 2. A high? He's not retarded preflop is he? A pf raise of 20% is not that bad and that range has you creamed.

The pot is also just 3.25 bb, hardly worth risking 2 bb to win 4.25 in this spot?

Re: Standard folds?
 

I can't fault you for folding either of these spots as the RIO are pretty bad and they are marginal at best (so obv high variance). That being said I do prefer to CAP hand #1 against this type of player because I am more likely to be able to overrep my hand and get him to check fold a lot of dangerous flops that don't hit him. On a lot of hands when the flop comes down A or K high he is folding to your c-bet if he hasn't paired so you can knock out his 6 out overcard draws.

hand #2 is super villain dependent, but on the turn assuming you have somewhere between 6-9 outs you still aren't getting odds to call if you have to improve. And if you call the turn you have to call the river so it is a pretty bad RIO spot. I think I probably just fold here, and if he bluffed me out with crap so be it.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
4-bet/cap the preflop action in hand 1 because a) you may have the better hand, and b) this gives you the best chance of leading on the flop. You need to flop a set or make him fold, IMO, unless he'll call down with a big ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy overaggression...

Re: Standard folds?
 

lmao at open raising 22 in the CO, have fun with that one.

against retardo that are 77/20+ and I have a note they 3barrel i'm never folding that 7, ever

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lmao at open raising 22 in the CO, have fun with that one.

against retardo that are 77/20+ and I have a note they 3barrel i'm never folding that 7, ever

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this. I took 22 and 33 out of my opening range here (and sometimes 44 depending on the blinds) and I don't regret it at all. The hand just plays horribly post-flop against blinds that defend any decent amount and have any amount of aggression.

Re: Standard folds?
 

Raising 22 here isn't terrible, especially if the blinds are as weak/tight as SB is looking.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising 22 here isn't terrible, especially if the blinds are as weak/tight as SB is looking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess, but by this logic I feel 64s also plays just as well. I am just as likely to steal the blinds, and if I get any resistance postflop I probably have to fold.

I know that is a little bit of an exageration, and the 22 obviously has some value because it is a made hand that beats A-highs, but I guess I just don't think I play quite well enough postflop to play this against all but the tightest of blinds.

Re: Standard folds?
 

I'm suprised it took 12 replies before someone said fold pf in hand 1. No way this makes money with 3 players left to act. If you are really considering capping a 3-bet from a tight player, then that's just crazy.

Hand 2 against the player you describe I call down and hate myself for getting pwned by this type of player.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way this makes money with 3 players left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know this how???

Re: Standard folds?
 

I fold in hand 1 as well. I fold 33 as well if I think it's going to be multiway a lot

Re: Standard folds?
 

Hand1: Open raising 22 from CO is pretty bad. I even think open raising from Button is super marginal. I think the fold is OK.We are pretty much hoping for him to have AK and AQ and then he still has a lot of outs. Peeling flop and/or turn are not completetly wrong but I prefer folding.

Hand 2:I prefer folding here too since we are OOP.If we had been in position I would be more proned to call down.But since this one is close I like taking a non-variance road.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No way this makes money with 3 players left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know this how???

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try taking a look at his preflop chart in WITHG, he actually recommends opening 22 in the CO [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I don't know [censored] either, and am also loosely following stox' recommendations. I think this is probably a close decision leaning towards a fold for most of us, but with tight players behind you I don't think raising here is anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

Re: Standard folds?
 

Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

[/ QUOTE ]

shorthanded game, CO open raise, and maybe Mozart appears a little weak to this guy, who knows??? Villain holds any ace here. If he's that tight, then pressure him to fold by capping preflop, betting the flop and watching him fold the worst hand...

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try taking a look at his preflop chart in WITHG, he actually recommends opening 22 in the CO [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I don't know [censored] either, and am also loosely following stox' recommendations. I think this is probably a close decision leaning towards a fold for most of us, but with tight players behind you I don't think raising here is anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with raising 22 in this spot, but you must commit to hammering this baby home. This is not a calling hand. Player's fatal flaw was setting himself up to fold by not capping preflop. If he doesn't flop his set, it's over...
No offense, but anyone who plays 22 like this guy did SHOULD muck preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah capping 22 when a seemingly tight/passive player 3-bets and trying to force him to fold sounds like an excellent plan. No wait it sounds like a massive spew. If you get married to a hand like 22 after raising it, outright folding it is definitely better.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the player in question tends to give your cap credit and will actually give up on some A-high and K-high type flops, then the cap isnt bad. I've played against several pretty good TAGs that my best play with this hand was to CAP pf and rep a big hand hoping that they 3-balled me with hands like 98s or KJo and they'll give up on the flop or turn if they don't make a pair. It costs 1 more SB, but I think it allows us to play postflop much much easier and actually gives us a chance to win if neither of us improve on the flop. If I just call I pretty much have to muck a huge % of flops that I might still be ahead on.

I really don't thinking capping is such a bad play here. That being said I would rather muck pf, but that may because I am not as good in these spots as some of you guys.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

[/ QUOTE ]

A game with two loose players ahead of us and 3 weak/tight ones behind us would be awesome, no?

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that opening here with 22 is fine with in a really tight game. I just don't think that I play in those games very often if ever. I also don't think that I play 22 or 33 postflop as well as Stox, so for me I these are probably folds pf so that I don't end up making bad plays in RIO situations. Not to say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

[/ QUOTE ]

A game with two loose players ahead of us and 3 weak/tight ones behind us would be awesome, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it would be tremendous. but we are setting up a very specific scenario. I am talking generalities. Normally I don't end up in the perfect seat with two nits acting after me and a bunch of loose passives before me. And in said seat it is rare that all of the loose players decided to muck pf when I happen to have 22 in the CO. Sure this happens, and in this case I am probably raising a huge % of my hands and 22 is definitely in there, but don't you think you might be stretching your point when you have to set up the exact game against the exact opponents and give me a certain seat to make the point.

I already conceded that this could be +EV in certain spots, or if you play very very well postflop (like Stox) I just said I didn't think it was +EV for me or a lot of the posters on here. I guess we can just agree to freaking disagree eh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded game, CO open raise, and maybe Mozart appears a little weak to this guy, who knows??? Villain holds any ace here. If he's that tight, then pressure him to fold by capping preflop, betting the flop and watching him fold the worst hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mozart is opening with 22 in the CO this doesn't sound like something a weak player would do (sure he could have folded every hand for ½ an hour but we have no such info). From the stats so far this villain isn't 3-betting all A's here, no [censored] way, if these stats are a decent reflection o f his true game he'll have a very narrow range here. Have you played any short-handed lately? Once people 3-bet preflop, they don't fold! Generally I think any plan that involves spending a ton of money on overinflating a small pot and then making an opponent fold HU is just poor poker.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I already conceded that this could be +EV in certain spots, or if you play very very well postflop (like Stox) I just said I didn't think it was +EV for me or a lot of the posters on here. I guess we can just agree to freaking disagree eh? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure we can, my last post was directed at your "find a different game" comment. I was just nitpicking and wanted to add that just because we have tight players behind us this can still be a great table. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Standard folds?
 

stats for 36 hands are b.s......

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
stats for 36 hands are b.s......

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, he's probably 90/70...

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I don't know [censored] actually. I just remember stox not raising 22-33 in this spot in a video, I think. IIRC he also looks a little bit at these hands in the database analysis section of WITHG (as well as A2o OTB).

Basically most of my comments are just regurgitations of his stuff. I just throw it out there and hope it still makes sense when it comes out of my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try taking a look at his preflop chart in WITHG, he actually recommends opening 22 in the CO [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I don't know [censored] either, and am also loosely following stox' recommendations. I think this is probably a close decision leaning towards a fold for most of us, but with tight players behind you I don't think raising here is anywhere near as bad as some people make it out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]


why does everyone assume whatever stox does is law.

i'm right here, i'm telling you raising 22 here is a losing play.

if you disagree, then please, continue to raise 22 in the CO.

On other thing to consider, I usually play at tables where there is a lot of green.

so raising here, and getting called in 2 places, and betting the flop and getting 2 guys to call with any pair, or both call with nothing, this is not a situation you want with 22.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not too say that it is impossible to play these +EV in this spot, just I think for me, and probably most of the posters on here, we would be better off mucking this pf. Or at least find a better game....

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the best point yet.

if raising 22 is a profitable play in the CO, then every hand you play at that table is probably -EV

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone assume whatever stox does is law.

i'm right here, i'm telling you raising 22 here is a losing play.

if you disagree, then please, continue to raise 22 in the CO.

On other thing to consider, I usually play at tables where there is a lot of green.

so raising here, and getting called in 2 places, and betting the flop and getting 2 guys to call with any pair, or both call with nothing, this is not a situation you want with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try reading the [censored] post you're replying to. Nowhere did I state that stox' word is law. I also said that I think this is close and probably a fold for most of us. And just for you, I'll repeat that I think this is a better raise if the players behind us are tight, in fact that's the only situation in which I'd raise 22 here.

Oh and also, your "I'm a poker god b/c I play 10/20 and I'm always right" posts are getting boring.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone assume whatever stox does is law.

i'm right here, i'm telling you raising 22 here is a losing play.

if you disagree, then please, continue to raise 22 in the CO.

On other thing to consider, I usually play at tables where there is a lot of green.

so raising here, and getting called in 2 places, and betting the flop and getting 2 guys to call with any pair, or both call with nothing, this is not a situation you want with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try reading the [censored] post your replying to. Nowhere did I state that stox' word is law. I also said that I think this is close and probably a fold for most of us. And just for you, I'll repeat that I think this is a better raise if the players behind us are tight, in fact that's the only situation in which I'd raise 22 here.

Oh and also, your "I'm a poker god b/c I play 10/20 and I'm always right" posts are getting boring.

[/ QUOTE ]


mvoss, i'm a rakeback tag, i'm ok with that.

I'm just tired of all these guys saying stox did this, stox did that, when there are people posting here in SSSH everyday that are just as good as him.

i've watched his videos, he doesn't do anything I don't do.

I've also talked with ILP/westley, because I was thinking about paying for the deucescracked videos, and he told me don't bother, because it just like watching us play.

he was hanging on schneid's nuts after watching his video though.

anyway, long story short, posters, just listen to your posters here, they are all very good players.

Re: Standard folds?
 

Schneids' videos on cardrunners are amazing imo, but there's no way I'm anywhere near good enough to start experimenting with a style similar to his.

About the deuces videos, they may not be worth the money to you, but I think they are to me and to a lot of other posters in this forum.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone assume whatever stox does is law.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont. But Stox has to my knowledge and as opposed to you presented empirical results which shows that 22 is +EV in CO.

That doesnt mean however that everyone reading SSSH should open with 22 in the CO 100%.

Nor does it mean that Stox results are actually correct since I am sure that the databases they use have an insufficient sample size to conclude anything in this matter.

All you have presented on this matter and other matters regarding preflop plays is claims made in your usual arrogant and dickish tone.

[ QUOTE ]
i'm right here, i'm telling you raising 22 here is a losing play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please present results with EV and variance, calculated t-values and probabilities that 22 is -EV in the CO.

If you cant please stop claiming that you know something you only think you know since claiming stuff you dont know is pretty useless and counterproductive.


[ QUOTE ]
if you disagree, then please, continue to raise 22 in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will. Is it ok if I only raise it once in a while when I think its +EV?


[ QUOTE ]
On other thing to consider, I usually play at tables where there is a lot of green.


[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats. So do I. But i am pretty sure that most readers dont give a [censored] about which stakes you play. However, most of us give a [censored] about arguments presented in a proper fashion using good reasoning and non-dickish tones.


[ QUOTE ]
so raising here, and getting called in 2 places, and betting the flop and getting 2 guys to call with any pair, or both call with nothing, this is not a situation you want with 22.


[/ QUOTE ]

As we all know this is the only possible outcome of playing 22 in the CO.


PS. You are a nit
PPS. Have you considered the possibility that 22 is +EV for some but not for you?
PPPS. If I come as a jerk it is fully intended. IMO your posts are useless more often than not.

Re: Standard folds?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why does everyone assume whatever stox does is law.

i'm right here, i'm telling you raising 22 here is a losing play.

if you disagree, then please, continue to raise 22 in the CO.

On other thing to consider, I usually play at tables where there is a lot of green.

so raising here, and getting called in 2 places, and betting the flop and getting 2 guys to call with any pair, or both call with nothing, this is not a situation you want with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try reading the [censored] post your replying to. Nowhere did I state that stox' word is law. I also said that I think this is close and probably a fold for most of us. And just for you, I'll repeat that I think this is a better raise if the players behind us are tight, in fact that's the only situation in which I'd raise 22 here.

Oh and also, your "I'm a poker god b/c I play 10/20 and I'm always right" posts are getting boring.

[/ QUOTE ]


mvoss, i'm a rakeback tag, i'm ok with that.

I'm just tired of all these guys saying stox did this, stox did that, when there are people posting here in SSSH everyday that are just as good as him.

i've watched his videos, he doesn't do anything I don't do.

I've also talked with ILP/westley, because I was thinking about paying for the deucescracked videos, and he told me don't bother, because it just like watching us play.

he was hanging on schneid's nuts after watching his video though.

anyway, long story short, posters, just listen to your posters here, they are all very good players.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason everyone refers to "stox this, stox that" is that he's the most visible example of solid play. I haven't watched any TheHip41 videos lately.

Additionally, I'm going to take almost everything I read on 2p2 with a grain of salt, with the exception of a handful of posters. I'm sure this handful is indeed just as good as stox.

Re: Standard folds?
 

schneids is a pimp. I paid for his first vid and he was saying stuff like:
"looks like everyone is folding too much, this is the kind of table I can really run over"
"my plan is to play looser and more aggressive than everyone and pick up lots of pots uncontested"

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]