what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

so here's how it went down. at the final table, i'm in the big blind, the small blind gets knocked out. so on the next hand the button skips him and i'm supposed to post the small blind on the button (small, small, big). the dealer doesn't tell me to post, so we just have a small and a big as normal. some guy shoves all in, everyone folds and as the dealer is pushing the pot he looks puzzled and then tells me i was supposed to post a small blind. even though he didn't tell me to, and the hand was already over, he wants me to forfeit my small blind to the guy who just won the pot.

what do you guys think should have happened in this situation?

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

I think the forward moving button is really stupid in tournaments. Cher-Ae Heights is the only place I've ever seen it, and it's dumb.

And you should pay the blind.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

you pay the blind but i'm pretty sure its ussualy a dead button...

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

Button should be dead, you are SB like you would have been if the previous SB didnt bust out, BB is still BB. You should be button on the next hand.

By moving the button to you, and making the guy to your left post a small blind they have just given the guy to your left a round of skipping the Big blind. Sounds stupid to me

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button should be dead, you are SB like you would have been if the previous SB didnt bust out, BB is still BB. You should be button on the next hand.

By moving the button to you, and making the guy to your left post a small blind they have just given the guy to your left a round of skipping the Big blind. Sounds stupid to me

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed that OP misspoke and that the blinds were actually (small (OP on button), big, big (two seats left of the button)). The next hand would be the (small (button), small, big). In this way, no player misses any blind and no player has the button (or effective button) two hands in a row.

In my opinion, having a dead button with a single big blind posted is far preferable, the only consequence being that a player will miss a single small blind. At the risk of discussing strat in B&M, getting to post a small blind on the button is a pretty sizable advantage in low M situations typical of the late stages of a tournament - more so than getting the effective button two hands in a row.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

yeah, my mistake. it was small, big, big.

but i didn't want this thread to be about the dead button rule. my question is about having to pay the blind even though the hand was over, all the cards were mucked, and it was the dealer's mistake not to tell me to post.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cher-Ae Heights is the only place I've ever seen it, and it's dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is precisely where this took place. good read.

they also do the same thing at blue lake too.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, my mistake. it was small, big, big.

but i didn't want this thread to be about the dead button rule. my question is about having to pay the blind even though the hand was over, all the cards were mucked, and it was the dealer's mistake not to tell me to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

KITN to the dealer for not making sure blinds were in before action started but I think its still reasonable to ask you to pay the blind. You should have known you owed it and put the money in in the first place without being asked by the dealer.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

If you go to the store and buy 6 items, get charged for 5, start to walk out when the clerk notices the mistake, do you pay for the 6th item or is it the clerk's fault for not having charged you in the first place?

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
and it was the dealer's mistake not to tell me to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

if it was the dealer's mistake not to tell you to post, whose mistake was it not to post?

you expect the dealer to pay more attention to your hand/blinds than you do? it's your responsibility to post your blinds. if you forgot, then you correct the situation.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you go to the store and buy 6 items, get charged for 5, start to walk out when the clerk notices the mistake, do you pay for the 6th item or is it the clerk's fault for not having charged you in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you pay for the 6th item but also give it back to the store?

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

As TD, if you indicated you knew you were supposed to post, I'd make you pay an SB to the pot winner. If not, I'd make you post an SB on the next hand.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As TD, if you indicated you knew you were supposed to post, I'd make you pay an SB to the pot winner. If not, I'd make you post an SB on the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then the winner of the first pot gets shorted.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

The OP does not owe a blind. The hand has been played. Any of the players could have pointed out that he owed the blind and didn't. Perhaps the raiser noticed he didn't post the blind and was planning to wait until he threw his cards away to ask that the blind be posted.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As TD, if you indicated you knew you were supposed to post, I'd make you pay an SB to the pot winner. If not, I'd make you post an SB on the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then the winner of the first pot gets shorted.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was compenated for that shortage by the fact that a player who might have called if he knew he had some equity in the pot in fact folded.

Yes I know in this specific case that it is rather unlikely that the player would have called the large all-in bet simply because he had a small blind in, but the underlying principal is sound,

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and it was the dealer's mistake not to tell me to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

if it was the dealer's mistake not to tell you to post, whose mistake was it not to post?

you expect the dealer to pay more attention to your hand/blinds than you do? it's your responsibility to post your blinds. if you forgot, then you correct the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was an irregular situation, though. it's the dealer's responibility to make sure the correct blinds are out when the cardroom has an unusual rule regarding dead buttons and missed blinds and whatnot

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

I hate that stupid rule. Why have 3 blinds when you can have a dead button and nobody gets confused.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the forward moving button is really stupid in tournaments. Cher-Ae Heights is the only place I've ever seen it, and it's dumb.

And you should pay the blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play at Cher-Ae Heights often? My brother is one of the dealer's there, and I'm pretty sure he agrees that the rule is retarded.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

i play mostly at blue lake, but i go to cher-ae-heights maybe once a week. who's your brother?

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the forward moving button is really stupid in tournaments. Cher-Ae Heights is the only place I've ever seen it, and it's dumb.

And you should pay the blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play at Cher-Ae Heights often? My brother is one of the dealer's there, and I'm pretty sure he agrees that the rule is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just re-relocated to the area and played there for the 3rd time in seven years last week (was semi-reg. before 2000). Blue Lake and Bear River rooms weren't around when I lived here before. I'll be at Char-Ae for tonight's rebuyament.

I don't mind the forward moving button rule for cash games (except for the 1/2 blind 5 to come in 200 max game at Char-Ae when they don't allow blind chops). If I ran the room (something I have zero experience doing fwiw), I'd dispense with the $5 bring in in the 1/2 game (or make it a $200-$500 buy in game, but I don't think that would be popular with the regulars) and go to a dead button rule.

To RR: In your opinion, at what point is OP relieved of the obligation of posting the blind? When he folds to the raise? When his cards become irretrievably mucked after he folds? When the pot is awarded? Some other point?

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i play mostly at blue lake, but i go to cher-ae-heights maybe once a week. who's your brother?

[/ QUOTE ]

His name is Brook, haven't seen him in a while but I'm assuming he still has his long hair and beard. Kinda stocky, he plays in there usually when he's not working, if he's playing he'll usually have some booze around him.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the forward moving button is really stupid in tournaments. Cher-Ae Heights is the only place I've ever seen it, and it's dumb.

And you should pay the blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play at Cher-Ae Heights often? My brother is one of the dealer's there, and I'm pretty sure he agrees that the rule is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just re-relocated to the area and played there for the 3rd time in seven years last week (was semi-reg. before 2000). Blue Lake and Bear River rooms weren't around when I lived here before. I'll be at Char-Ae for tonight's rebuyament.

I don't mind the forward moving button rule for cash games (except for the 1/2 blind 5 to come in 200 max game at Char-Ae when they don't allow blind chops). If I ran the room (something I have zero experience doing fwiw), I'd dispense with the $5 bring in in the 1/2 game (or make it a $200-$500 buy in game, but I don't think that would be popular with the regulars) and go to a dead button rule.



[/ QUOTE ]

yea, i think my brother said that they've tried to do that in the past but it didn't fly. That game gets pretty good though. I love that rebuyament though.

Re: what do you think of this ruling? (B&M donkament)
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, my mistake. it was small, big, big.

but i didn't want this thread to be about the dead button rule. my question is about having to pay the blind even though the hand was over, all the cards were mucked, and it was the dealer's mistake not to tell me to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tournament game I don't see how you can be penalized this hand. You might be required to post a trailing "make up" blind next hand. After all in this hand the opening raiser acted looking at the blinds posted, not the blinds that should be posted. How can he get your blind too after the fact (especially when any player could have pointed out the mistake before the hand)?

In a ring game it's usually just ruled as "your lucky day" and you get to skip one blind that round (although sometimes you might be required to post a trailing blind next hand).

I guess I'm saying I'm not 100% sure here but these are the things that would enter my thinking.

~ Rick