Cheating at a poker room?
 

Cheating at the Belagio Poker Room

It’s a Thursday afternoon at the Belagio, November 8, 2007. I’m sitting in a 2-5 n/l game waiting for my name to be called on the 5-10 n/l game. Haven’t played here in 6 months because of my certainty of collusion going on in the no limit games at the Belagio. Lots of reports in 2+2 forums suggested collusion was rampant at Belagio also. I did play yesterday and won a little. The 5-10 n/l games in Vegas that are going all the time are Wynn, and Bellagio, with an occasional game on the weekends at Red Rock and Ceasars. Im sorta forced to go where the games are.
A must move 5-10 no limit game is called on table 31 at 4pm. Tommy, a 20’ish asian sits in seat 1, an asian girl Sue sits beside him in seat 2. I’m in seat 8 talking to a poker friend. I remarked that they were sitting together yesterday and I suspected that they where cheating (colluding as a team). We talked about and observed the signals between the two. Whenever Tommy would get ready to fold, he would hold his cards ½ inch off the felt to signal to Sue to fold also. When he was ready to play, he would place a chip on his card which was the signal that he would raise and she would ALWAYS call.
In about 45 minutes, sue called every hand that tommy reaised. Usually, this was done in the later positions, trying to isolate one person with two cards against their 4 cards, one of which would presumable be a good hand. Sue limped one time in 45 minutes without tommy, all other times, they where in pots together.
A pathetic looking old lady is in seat 9. She has bruised arms and bruised eyes, and is 50 lbs overweight. She’s on her second buyin of $500. All fold to her in middle position and she limps for 10, tommy signals raise and raises it up to 60, sue calls 60, MP lady calls 60. time is around 4:30pm, 11/8/2007, table 31. flop is 8 7 3 two diamonds. MP checks, now comes the raise signal from tommy, a stack of $5 red chips on top of his cards. We are playing with $10 chips and this is the first time he has placed a stack of red chips on his cards. He raises to $120, Sue makes it $400 to go. Mp mucks hand, aver 30 seconds of theatrics (very poor ones at that) tommy mucks hand and Sue rakes in pot. Really smooth team play. Team wins $60 from mark, neither show their hand.
Sue is moved to main game right after hand. I move to her empty seat so I can be to the cheaters left. I want to bust him. He’s called to 2nd main game. I’m called right after to his game. There are 3 5-10 no limit games going.
I go directly to day shift supervisor of the poker and report the cheating team. He wants to know who they are and I point them both out and brush identifies them as tommy and sue, regulars in the poker room. I explain all the signals and the method they used for cheating. He tells brush to keep them in separate games. 20 minutes later, tommy asks for a table change to Sues game. Brush denies the request. Tommy is indignant and realizes hes been had. Goes over to Sue and they are talking, then both go out to the sports bar. When they return, Sue goes to brush and raises hell about not being able to cheat at same table with Tommy. Brush sends her to day shift supervisor. They talk in hallway for 15 minutes (me thinks she protests too much) after all, there are 3 games to choose from. Swing shift starts. 20 minutes later, tommy goes to seat 4 in game 1 with Sue in seat 2. I go totally berserk. I confront swing supervisor and tell him hes running a corrupt room. Tell him about team players and he swears he knows nothing. The day shift supervisor had given them permission to cheat at the same table, 45 minutes after I had told him about the cheating. Swing supervisor is irate and threatens to ban me, I ask for security. After security shows up, swing supervisor instructs brush to separate the team “while investigation is going on”. Im sitting in the office with supervisor and security, sue comes in all irate that they cant “temporarily” cheat in the same game. Raises hell with security and I quote “ we come here to gamble together”. Swing supervisor pleads with her to change tables temporarily. Security asks her to leave. She refuses. Security calls for backup, they “trespass’ her. Tell her she must leave the property immediately. Calls for backup to escort her off property. She racks up and waits for tommy to rackup and they leave together before rest of security arrives. I file a written complaint with security. They don’t understand poker nor do they understand the concepts of team play.

To my dear friends in wpdg who asked me the following:

“Why don’t they just look at the tapes and ban the crooks” here is your answer directly from the day shift supervisor (name available upon request).
“ We don’t have time to look at the tapes” (after all the cheating was going on in my poker room during my shift- my comments)The teams do bring in more rake for the room.

To my dear friends in WPDG who asked me.
“why don’t you report the cheating to the supervisor”
Because telling a corrupt supervisor that he’s running a crooked room accomplishes nothing. 45 minutes after reporting the team cheating to him, the team was sitting at the same table playing together again.

This time, I went one step further though. I called the Nevada Gaming Control board and reported the cheating team and Bellagio supervisor actions to the Chief Investigator.

The poker gods smiled nicely on the cheaters. Tommy lost over $2000 in my game before moving to sues table. He’s actually a pretty poor player without his accomplice.
I was told by security that taking pictures of cheating teams is illegal and I could be barred permanently from the belagio if I publish them.

edited to change title so allegations are not presented as a fact on the front page- RR

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cheating at the Belagio Poker Room

A must move 5-10 no limit game is called on table 31 at 4pm. Tommy, a 20’ish asian sits in seat 1, an asian girl Sue sits beside him in seat 2. Whenever Tommy would get ready to fold, he would hold his cards ½ inch off the felt to signal to Sue to fold also. When he was ready to play, he would place a chip on his card which was the signal that he would raise and she would ALWAYS call.


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I might have missed something so I'll just try to be nice and suggest you rewrite that part...it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (an the raise later)

the sarcastic part to illustrate the point: I would think tommy's signal that he was raising was probably pretty obvious to everyone--him putting his chips in probably tipped it off. And his signal that he was going to get ready to fold? Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

not sarcastic anymore: when describing things like this, you probably want to keep arguments like that out, since that's what people might key on. If you saw this when Tommy was in the 4 seat and his partner was in the 2 seat, then you've got something. And the fact that they wanted to sit at the same table doesnt' really say too much (at least in and of itself).

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if what you're saying is true, but a lot of the evidence you provided doesn't make a lot of sense. Did the guy you spoke with see the signals in other situations...And yes, them being in the same pots all the time does seem really fishy...

Shane

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

helluva 1st post buddy... welcome to 2p2 hehe

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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they “trespass’ her.

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Are you saying that security raped this woman?!

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

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Sue might be first to act.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

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Sue might be first to act.

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Only when HE (whatever his name was, the cheater) is the big blind though. I think, because he was in seat 1, Sue was in seat 2. Ergo...

Also gotta wonder why he needs to let her know that he is raising, before he raises. One would think the actual raise would tip her off.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

So your theory on how they cheat is that they always pay off double except for the one hand where they bet $520 betwene them in order to win $60.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

This wouldnt surprise me at all, it meshes pretty well with what Ive heard. No personal experience in the game however.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Rather than fill up the WPDG e-mails, although I'm sure that will happen soon enough, I will say my thought's here David.

You did the right thing by contacting the GCB, since that's the most efficient way to do something. You're 45 minutes of watching them amounts to... 30 hands at most, probably closer to 20. So "every time he raised" amounts to at most 3 or 4 times, right. Plus if she knows to always call his raise, he doesn't need to be signaling. It's only if he's on her left that any of the signals you talk about are in any way necessary.

So what we have so far is you observing, at most 4 times, a "cheating" action which is useless. Then you observe one questionable move. The one move they make, risks a combined $640 for a net win of $60. Then you observe the couple, who are "regulars" getting upset that they aren't allowed to play together, which presumably they have been able to do for a while, since they are regulars.

I think you probably have a good sense of sniffing things out, and I trust your judgment, and despite what I said, I think you are probably right that they are cheating. BUT the two important things to remember are: 1) they clearly suck at it and are very exploitable in the way they do it, and 2) as you said, Tommy also lost 2 buy ins in what must have been less than 2 hours (based on the figures you have provided) waiting for the table change.

That being said, I'm glad you contacted Gaming and are trying to make the room a fair and good place to play.

Edit: Plus, you said you DID get them barred from the property (even if they helped!). I don't see how you can be so upset about the way things went down when your evidence is slim at best.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Is it at all possible that two players might enjoy playing at the same table more than they would at different tables? Of course it is.

Also, as already has been noted, there is no need for a signal for folding or raising if the act of folding/raising itself will serve to communicate that.

Is a player getting upset because he/she is not allowed to move to a table where a friend is playing indicative of cheating? Is it possible that this can occur among players who are playing honestly, and not cheating? Of course, it is.

Rather than concluding that they probably just wanted to play together, which was probably more likely, you chose to believe that they were cheating based on rather illogical assertions.

It really dumbfounds me how someone can have such a lack of logical thinking. Honestly, I'm not sure why, but it also somewhat annoys and angers me. How can someone be that stupid?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

It's pretty pathetic that something like that could go on at the Bellagio, but I'm more surprised by the credulity of a lot of the responses - just because they are trying to cheat doesn't mean they do it well.

But really, I think the dealers have some responsibility to stop this kind of thing. They are in the unique position of being able to seruptitiously scope mucked hands. I remember one day playing at a indian casino in nowhere Ontario, two guys came in, sat down beside each other, were obviously kicking each other under the table, laughing, and making it pretty obvious. I gave the dealer a look, she shrugs. Next dealer comes in, a guy I know plays and deals underground in Toronto. 5 minutes in he calls over the supervisor and whispers something to her, 5 minutes later the cheaters are kicked. It should be just that easy. This is a 5-10 FL game in backwater Ontario, not 5-10 NL at the Bellagio.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Tommy and Sue where sitting next to each other on Nov 7 in the 5-10 n/l game. The person I was talking to and watching the various signals has seen them working together as a team many times before. The hand that i gave an example where the two isolate a person then tommy signals a reraise after the flop is just one example of their collusion. There is no questions that they where working together.
dave

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Hi Dave,

The times I have played 2-5 & 10-20 NL at Bellagio, I have not noticed cheating (but I'm not an expert). I mostly play lower limits (played Hooters, Red Rock & Orleans tonight). I know these out of the way places don't have the big games you are looking for but if you think Bellagio is so bad.....

Why not just play at Wynn, Red Rock, etc?


You have been knocking 'em dead in the $5-10 with your SPR's, why let that fun couple put you on tilt?



They may just be a fun couple wanting to give you their money. Relax and take a deep breathe, Bro.


Best Wishes

Howard

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

I said they where cheating, not that they where smart or good or discrete at it. This was just one example of their team work observed many times.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

WOW, wtf?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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I said they where cheating, not that they where smart or good or discrete at it. This was just one example of their team work observed many times.

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Yeah, but what you said is that they need "signals" for raises or folds, which is obviously ridiculous to anyone who's played poker before. So your story has a strange little hole in it. It's not a question of "being good at it", it's a question of you percieving some need for signals, which raises a question about your ability to evaluate the entire situation.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

They might be colluders, but from the evidence you've provided here, I don't see it. A player in seat 1 would not need to signal his intentions to a player in seat 2, as others have pointed out. He acts first, he doesn't need a raise "signal." Lots of players inadvertently signal their intentions before it's their turn to act. That two players put in $520 to take $60 from the "mark" seems silly. I know, one can claim they are incompetent cheaters, but is this the best example you have of how they have colluded?

I have a 2+2 friend who play only occasionally. When he does come to the cardroom, I enjoy his company and I will leave my regular bigger game to play in his slightly lower stakes game and I will always sit next to him; we will ask for a table change if we are moved from a must move game to different tables. So it's not unheard of that two people come to the cardroom to play together at the same table.

Again, I'm not saying these two aren't cheating, but I don't see any evidence of it whatsoever in what you've posted here.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

If they were cheating, in the hand where Sue reraised Tommy's flop bet, why wouldn't he have checked to her, let her bet the $120, have the old lady call the $120, then reraise it in order to get another $120 out of the third party. Instead they risked over $600 to get her $60 bucks. And you observed all of this in under an hour? Seems like a really paranoid uncalled for accusation to me. I think I'd be grateful to have them playing at my table. Thanks for chasing them out of Bellagio.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

I think I have seen that girl there. So far, I have seen her with about 3 different guys. Based on your evidence and her style of play, I don't see collusion. The girl I am thing of plays an aggressive game post flop. Based on her playing style, I don't see what you observed as being collusion.

But I could be talking about someone completely different.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Yea, sue is a cute small asian chick with black hair.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

I think you should work for poker stars support team eh? how can you be so sure they were cheating? your evidence is slim and no solid proof. If Bellagio wants to catch cheating, pretty sure they will go check on the tapes, hence, that's no your business. Maybe they just like to play pot against each other? oh, everytime i go to Vegas, I always sit next to my friend and we almost always play pot against each other. Therefore, there are a lot of raise and reraise to isolate other players so we could HU against each other (and yea, with some other ppl's money in it cuz we just isolated them). Am I cheating? you wanna report me?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Again, I'm not saying these two aren't cheating, but I don't see any evidence of it whatsoever in what you've posted here.

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Of course you are right, unfortunately there isn't a lot of convincing evidence that can be gathered from one player.

So in this thread we've established that it is very very hard for a player to prove cheating, even in blatant cases, that the rooms don't care, we know that the dealers sure as hell don't care, and we've also established that any discussion of cheating is more likely to draw sarcastic comments and doubts than anything at all productive.

In fact the only thing that happens when you allege cheating, as far as I can see, is that you help the cheaters adapt to you.

I think I see why poker was dying before it got a temporary reprieve from TV.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Did the Bellagio bar you for something and this is your way of "getting back"?

So these two were "regulars". And in all this time, nobody caught on to their "routine" except OP? Oh, I forgot. The staff are corrupt too. That's the point of the post. Not that you "caught" two colluders, but that everybody should avoid the Bellagio.

I don't buy what you are selling.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

All -

I know Sue and her boyfriend in a hello-goodbye kind of way (if its who i think it is - very short asian girl, around 28-30, cute/thin, often looks angry, and her name is Sue. Boyfriend wears dark sunglasses, I think he has red hair). This isn't the first time they have been accused of collusion. I wondered if thats what I was experiencing the second time I played with them in a 15/30 game but I eventually realized they just play hard, and each other harder.

Does it look like collusion when they play? Yes. Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players. Is it possible? Yes... but it might be implicit rather than their intended goal.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

[ QUOTE ]

Did the Bellagio bar you for something and this is your way of "getting back"?

So these two were "regulars". And in all this time, nobody caught on to their "routine" except OP? Oh, I forgot. The staff are corrupt too. That's the point of the post. Not that you "caught" two colluders, but that everybody should avoid the Bellagio.

I don't buy what you are selling.

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You just attacked the OP because you don't like his conclusions? I guess I'm not buying what you're selling.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

I'm not sure isolating an opponent 1 against 2 is +EV anyway.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Holding his cards like he's ready to fold or putting a chip on his cards when he intends on staying in the hand pretty much makes him like a LOT of other players who give away their intentions in advance.
This only counts as giving his hand away to the entire table...not as collusion.

The other stuff I don't know but it seems very possible they just play aggressively. Not enough evidence there.
But the physical-tell "evidence" is just weird.
When he's about to fold he looks like he's going to fold. When he's about to play he puts a chip on his cards and reaches for his chips.
I really can't believe I read that somehow this is supposed to mean he is colluding.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

[ QUOTE ]
Holding his cards like he's ready to fold or putting a chip on his cards when he intends on staying in the hand pretty much makes him like a LOT of other players who give away their intentions in advance.
This only counts as giving his hand away to the entire table...not as collusion.

The other stuff I don't know but it seems very possible they just play aggressively. Not enough evidence there.
But the physical-tell "evidence" is just weird.
When he's about to fold he looks like he's going to fold. When he's about to play he puts a chip on his cards and reaches for his chips.
I really can't believe I read that somehow this is supposed to mean he is colluding.

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Seriously. And the fact that his accomplice is acting after him makes these "signals" completely useless to her, but makes them quite useful for the OP or anyone else acting before Tommy. Sound like tells to me, not signals in a collusion scheme. If what the OP describes is cheating, these two are the worst cheaters of all time.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Did the Bellagio bar you for something and this is your way of "getting back"?

So these two were "regulars". And in all this time, nobody caught on to their "routine" except OP? Oh, I forgot. The staff are corrupt too. That's the point of the post. Not that you "caught" two colluders, but that everybody should avoid the Bellagio.

I don't buy what you are selling.

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You just attacked the OP because you don't like his conclusions?

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Technically he "attacked" his conclusion. And yeah, that's pretty much what you're supposed to do when someone's conclusion doesn't measure up with the presented facts.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Is this Crazy Mike's gimmick account?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Either OP's story is a bit garbled, or it isn't collusion. A cheating team doesn't signal "I'm about to fold" to the player behind; that's what a poor player who is accidentally or uncaringly telecasting his intentions does. A cheating team signals "I need you to bet after I check" to the player behind, or "I need you to raise behind me" or signals to the player in front "I want to bet, you should check raise". Those are useful signals.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

No, this is Dave. He has been around for awhile playing Las Vegas

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

I don't know about the Bellagio, but I've been playing in So. Calif. cardrooms since the late '70s and I agree that the cardrooms basically don't care. The smarter cheaters tip generously and are therefore "friends" of the floor personnel. Gambling and cheating have always gone hand in hand, always will. When I first starting playing, the players dealt themselves, there were no house dealers. You can imagine what went on then.

That said, an accusation of cheating is a serious thing. If OP got some sarcastic commments and doubts it's because he made, IMO, a very poor case in his post.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Yea, sue is a cute small asian chick with black hair.

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Good description. Very detailed. Aside from the "cute" adjective, you suceeded in describing what, like 90% of asian girls?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

"Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players."

I've never bought into this argument. I've seen a billionaire give his golf ball a toe-nudge when we've had $5 at stake. I know Andy Beal insisted on playing the coporation head-up. I know Barry looks at his cards quickly and then covers them up. I've seen excellent players signal each other; I've heard them tell each other what to do.

My dad insists professional sports isn't fixed these days because the players already make too much money. Bull. The more they make, the more they want.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Yea, sue is a cute small asian chick with black hair.

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Good description. Very detailed. Aside from the "cute" adjective, you suceeded in describing what, like 90% of asian girls?

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There are very few cute late 20's asian women regularly playing $5-10 NL in Vegas. I'm pretty certain all the regular locals in this level game recognize each other.

I only play one weekend a month and typically recognize half the players at a $10-20, $15-30, or $20-40 LHE table at Wynn, Bellagio, or Mirage.

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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Did the Bellagio bar you for something and this is your way of "getting back"?

So these two were "regulars". And in all this time, nobody caught on to their "routine" except OP? Oh, I forgot. The staff are corrupt too. That's the point of the post. Not that you "caught" two colluders, but that everybody should avoid the Bellagio.

I don't buy what you are selling.

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You just attacked the OP because you don't like his conclusions?

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Technically he "attacked" his conclusion. And yeah, that's pretty much what you're supposed to do when someone's conclusion doesn't measure up with the presented facts.

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He suggested that the Bellagio had barred the OP and this was "getting back"

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

Nothing described in the OP actually sounds like evidence of cheating. If they are actually trying to cheat then they apparently have not the slightest clue what they are doing.

I believe I may have played with them a couple times although I don't ask people's names when I play with them so I can't be sure... I didn't notice anything unusual but I wasn't really watching for it either.

Re: Cheating at a poker room?
 

Okay, maybe I'm missing something.

But if you were so sure that they were they were colluding to isolate players and then push them off of their hands, why didn't you let them isolate you and then come over the top of their presumptive garbage hands?

After all, you’d ‘know’ if she re-raised post-flop that they had nothing, and that if she flat called post-flop that they were trying to suck you in.

Or, again, am I missing something here?

Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room
 

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"Do they need to collude? No, they are both better than average players."

I've never bought into this argument.

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its not an argument I am presenting, just showing that if it was that obvious that they were colluding then something doesn't add up. They play well and often enough that if they were colluding they would know how to hide it better. Placing a chip on a players cards is not a signal, there are much harder to detect signals that can be used. Many locals use the chip on the card to show intent, but its not collusion. Its more common to find poor players who are colluding than good players, of course that doesnt mean they didn't do it, it only means they are less likely to fit the profile of a colluder.