Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Normally I would post this on SMP but my other thread makes it relevant here.

It seems like a lot of people think it is admirable, or romantic or exciting to risk millions of dollars on gambling games with little or no edge. They somehow equate that with other entrepreneurs who pursue their dreams with little thought of the downside.

But don't you think there is a difference? I'm all for betting big money with an edge that justifies it. And I have no problem if people want to gamble big money without this edge. But to call this second category "admirable" seems totally wrong. Not when the world is in the state it is in. One well known hi roller professes strong religious conviction and goes on to lose half a million in a golf game he has little chance in. The loss doesn't affect him much, meaning he could have done some good with it. Fine. That's his right. But to ADMIRE the fact that he has gamble? Cmon. He wasn't risking his money in the hopes of starting a company that would turn apples into fuel. He was betting a half a million dolllars on a GOLF GAME. With the worst of it. You might admire that kind of activity. Forgive me if I don't.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I doubt many admires it. We're just entertained.

It's like watching the nosebleed games on ft, especially when a new comer is making a run that will almost certainly end in his bustoness. We basically treat this like reality TV.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

One well known hi roller professes strong religious conviction and goes on to lose half a million in a golf game he has little chance in.

= http://www.gambling911.com/Daniel-Negreanu.jpg

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I agree with this sentiment.

Poker players today are in a unique place in time and space, and if they really want to be part of the larger world, they should try to connect in more real ways with things that aren't always related to gambling lots of money. The contest for Biggest Degenerate will never be won, so it would be far more enlightened to take that money and do something useful with it. (Edit: At least in the case of someone trying to pursue some version of religious enlightenment with or without poker).

I also think it's crazy that we have the unique opportunity to travel to lots of amazing places in the world, in near first-class style and with relative ease, and the only thing most poker players could tell you about those locations is how good the cash games were or how much they flipped for over dinner.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

yeah but a lot of these guys score good snapper and i admire that

unless they is really ugly then they dont score anything

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I def agree with that, shaniac. I'm no where near being a successful poker player, but I did get to travel a bit over the last two years. Getting poker players to do something that isn't gambling related is nearly an impossible task, and it really bugged me.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Yeah, sorry we never made it to Louis XV, Yuv. Next year, for sure!

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Personally I agree. However, there is a major but. A writer on a European poker website expressed it much better than I can when he said :

"Online poker sites use clever marketing to convince new players that the keys to being successful at poker are not maths, discipline and experience, but bravery, guts and an ability to read people."

Substitute "TV uses the big game players" into the first line, promote this myth wherever we can, ???, profit.

It makes me very happy to think about how much money I have made playing against people who buy into this myth and think maths is just for nerds.

So of course it isn't admirable. But it may be very much in our interest to pretend that it is.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Again, I think you might be misinterpreting what Strassa was going for. He is admiring the gumption of those who have tried and made it - even if what they are doing isn't particularly consequential - and criticizing your "Well, I'd be awesome at this, if I could ever be bothered to do it" attitude. I think it is entirely mindsets and approaches to life that he is considering, not the merit of what you're actually doing.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of people think it is admirable, or romantic or exciting to risk millions of dollars on gambling games with little or no edge.

[/ QUOTE ]it's more like fascination combined with disbelief combined with jealousy.

I don't understand how it's not exciting to see people gamble for high stakes. Imagine a scenario where you make $50,000 a year, so money means a lot to you. Then imagine a scenario where you see people flip a coin for $100,000 and within 2 seconds, someone just won 2 years salary. How is that not fun?

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]

unless they is really ugly then they dont score anything

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, even the mouth gets some snapper.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I find the ups and downs of gambling for large amounts of money fascinating - with or without an edge.

I admire someone with good bankroll management.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of people think it is admirable, or romantic or exciting to risk millions of dollars on gambling games with little or no edge.

[/ QUOTE ]it's more like fascination combined with disbelief combined with jealousy.

I don't understand how it's not exciting to see people gamble for high stakes. Imagine a scenario where you make $50,000 a year, so money means a lot to you. Then imagine a scenario where you see people flip a coin for $100,000 and within 2 seconds, someone just won 2 years salary. How is that not fun?

[/ QUOTE ]

Was playing Benyamine fun?

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

People often admire others who are doing something they wish they could do. I wish i could bet 500k on a game of golf.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like a lot of people think it is admirable, or romantic or exciting to risk millions of dollars on gambling games with little or no edge.

[/ QUOTE ]it's more like fascination combined with disbelief combined with jealousy.

I don't understand how it's not exciting to see people gamble for high stakes. Imagine a scenario where you make $50,000 a year, so money means a lot to you. Then imagine a scenario where you see people flip a coin for $100,000 and within 2 seconds, someone just won 2 years salary. How is that not fun?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zeebo, it seems you don't understand. To many, many people in the world, gambling for that amount of money is soulless and sickening. (Not me, of course, I love gambling, but I know how the other half sees it, too).

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

When I first started gambling, I learned the simplest, ages-old axioms that gamblers live by. Take the best of it on bets in relation to your bankroll. When I first went on the road traveling with big-time gamblers, I went broke fading dice because my bankroll was too small even though I had the best of it on every roll.

I never understood the gamblers with bad leaks and especially bad gambling leaks. How can anyone admire the tragic losers who, although skilled poker players, also lost large sums gambling: Johnny Moss, Titanic Thompson,Stu Ungar, Jack Straus, Nick the Greek. Nick the Greek and Johnny Moss ended up playing cheap limit in their old age because they just wanted to gamble every single day. Colorful but hardly admirable as the best gamblers.

I have often seen very young gamblers go on big winning streaks only to end up broke for various reasons. I have been there. You tell a good trapper by the furs on the wall.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To many, many people in the world, gambling for that amount of money is soulless and sickening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when they're just flipping (or equivalent). Playing a game with a skill element is easier for people to relate to I think.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this sentiment.

Poker players today are in a unique place in time and space, and if they really want to be part of the larger world, they should try to connect in more real ways with things that aren't always related to gambling lots of money. The contest for Biggest Degenerate will never be won, so it would be far more enlightened to take that money and do something useful with it. (Edit: At least in the case of someone trying to pursue some version of religious enlightenment with or without poker).

I also think it's crazy that we have the unique opportunity to travel to lots of amazing places in the world, in near first-class style and with relative ease, and the only thing most poker players could tell you about those locations is how good the cash games were or how much they flipped for over dinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

God I love you shane.

Perhaps the greatest thing about my 0-4 record thus far in live events is that I've really gotten to see the places I've been in. Altantis and Monaco were ridiculously awesome trips because I went around and did so many non-poker activities, not because of any of the poker related activities. I would hate to have missed out on an afternoon trip to Italy whilst in Monaco, or a Jet-Skiing adventure in Atlantis w/ my best friend because I was locked in the lobby playing tournaments like so many people were. I'm in this for the money and for the thrill. There are certainly people in this who are just in it for the gambling it seems, and their supposed glamorous cojones on and off the table are likely just a facade for their degeneracy.

I am guilty of quite a bit of degeneracy myself, but I'd like to think it's not overwhelming, and I can balance it out. I still agree w/ much of what Strassa said in the other thread about David's attitude about all of this, but I definitely wouldn't compare a Teddy Rooseveltian take on life with constantly being busto and gambling your life away on -ev ventures. There is a fine line between pushing the edge and having a bit of risk in your life, and being a mess of a person whose mental state rides on the turn of a card every other day.

I have played over my head in games I shouldn't have played in, I have done my share of retarded shot taking, but make no mistake I realize that it was my ego clouding my vision, and not an Evel Knievel take on life.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this sentiment.

Poker players today are in a unique place in time and space, and if they really want to be part of the larger world, they should try to connect in more real ways with things that aren't always related to gambling lots of money. The contest for Biggest Degenerate will never be won, so it would be far more enlightened to take that money and do something useful with it. (Edit: At least in the case of someone trying to pursue some version of religious enlightenment with or without poker).

I also think it's crazy that we have the unique opportunity to travel to lots of amazing places in the world, in near first-class style and with relative ease, and the only thing most poker players could tell you about those locations is how good the cash games were or how much they flipped for over dinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Sch. very solid as usual but I think it is all gambling mentality types that miss life. I have trading friends worth $300M who do NOT miss a day of work and when on holiday take monitors and screens so they can watch markets, a horse-racing mate who hasnt been outside Perth in 30 years cause he will miss a race...........addictives all are losers in life............

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I never understood people who work 60 hours a work for 20 years just to become partner and earn the right to work 80 hours a week! All for the purpose of making lots and lots of money, but never enjoying it fully or using it to help anyone else. I went to HS with a lot of people who will probably go down like that, and that's a big part of the reason I didn't go to college (no possibility of winding up like that). I do work hard to try and achieve what I want and what I believe in, just not in that way.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

David,

you should collect all your posts in NVG as a book.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

David,

"But to ADMIRE the fact that he has gamble? Cmon."

You find it surprising that a bunch of degenerate gamblers admire bigger degenerate gamblers?

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

EXACTLY....conversation from 10 years ago, I am working 100+ hour weeks living on one of the great surf beaches in the world..

Me to Surfer Dude while walking to my car on the way to work

"What are you doing mate"

SD "Just enjoying life my man, surf's up ya know"
ME "But you live in a kombi van and eat like sheet and have no money"

SD" No mate the govt pays me social security, I do what I want"
ME "Yeah but you live in a van with no water, shower etc"

SD "Mate look at those crisp waves...come surfing for the day"
ME " NO dude I gotta work"

SD "Why work man"
ME "Ive got 3 kids in private school and I want to earn enough so I can retire"
SD "So what will you do when you retire"
ME "Probably surf and fish and drink wine"
SD "Exactly, thats what I do now mate...."

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Agreed. Instead of doing all this work we should all just pull down our pants and see whose is the longest once and for all.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I read that whole thing outloud w/ an Australian accent.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read that whole thing outloud w/ an Australian accent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find the ups and downs of gambling for large amounts of money fascinating - with or without an edge.

I admire someone with good bankroll management.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this sentiment.

Poker players today are in a unique place in time and space, and if they really want to be part of the larger world, they should try to connect in more real ways with things that aren't always related to gambling lots of money. The contest for Biggest Degenerate will never be won, so it would be far more enlightened to take that money and do something useful with it. (Edit: At least in the case of someone trying to pursue some version of religious enlightenment with or without poker).

I also think it's crazy that we have the unique opportunity to travel to lots of amazing places in the world, in near first-class style and with relative ease, and the only thing most poker players could tell you about those locations is how good the cash games were or how much they flipped for over dinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Sch. very solid as usual but I think it is all gambling mentality types that miss life. I have trading friends worth $300M who do NOT miss a day of work and when on holiday take monitors and screens so they can watch markets, a horse-racing mate who hasnt been outside Perth in 30 years cause he will miss a race...........addictives all are losers in life............

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I never understood people who work 60 hours a work for 20 years just to become partner and earn the right to work 80 hours a week! All for the purpose of making lots and lots of money, but never enjoying it fully or using it to help anyone else. I went to HS with a lot of people who will probably go down like that, and that's a big part of the reason I didn't go to college (no possibility of winding up like that). I do work hard to try and achieve what I want and what I believe in, just not in that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of people work hard like this to provide for their families and to retire or to do whatever they want. I don't begrudge anyone who's willing to bust his ass for a paycheck, no matter how large. I have a lot of friends who pull 90 hours weeks who don't understand how someone could risk the possibility of not making next month's rent because of the turn of a card. We're all looking at things relative to our own position.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I first started gambling, I learned the simplest, ages-old axioms that gamblers live by. Take the best of it on bets in relation to your bankroll. When I first went on the road traveling with big-time gamblers, I went broke fading dice because my bankroll was too small even though I had the best of it on every roll.

I never understood the gamblers with bad leaks and especially bad gambling leaks. How can anyone admire the tragic losers who, although skilled poker players, also lost large sums gambling: Johnny Moss, Titanic Thompson,Stu Ungar, Jack Straus, Nick the Greek. Nick the Greek and Johnny Moss ended up playing cheap limit in their old age because they just wanted to gamble every single day. Colorful but hardly admirable as the best gamblers.

I have often seen very young gamblers go on big winning streaks only to end up broke for various reasons. I have been there. You tell a good trapper by the furs on the wall.

[/ QUOTE ]


Brilliantly put! I think it's also true, though, that spectators enjoy watching all the more when they know the gamblers are being fools. People are voyeurs, and enjoy watching others risk destruction. It's a way they can enjoy the sensation of a thousand little deaths without risking it themselves.

Exhibit one: read the blog of Ed, aka Bluescouse, a 19 year old guy in Wales who lives with his parents and has several times managed to turn £1000 into £150,000 and then lose it again, because he has no game selection, no bankroll management, and no tilt control. Right now he is in the process of losing his last £70,000, one day at a time, and it is gripping reading. His poker blog is one of the most talked-about on the net. The comments pages are filled with people trying to shake him out of it - to hand the money over to someone else, to buy a house, a car, at least a holiday. But he is beyond help; he will lose all this money, and so we want to read on even more.

http://88percent.blogspot.com/

How much more exciting his blog is than that of any number of successful and controlled players. I visited CTS's blog the other day and saw his preppy life, his amazing Los Angeles flat, his fancy cars. I felt a little envy but otherwise wasn't engaged; I didn't think to visit again to see how much more he had won and how fabulous his life continues to be. But I check Bluescouse's blog every day.

Tragedies have always been more popular than comedies; the emotions they make us experience are that much greater.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
David,

"But to ADMIRE the fact that he has gamble? Cmon."

You find it surprising that a bunch of degenerate gamblers admire bigger degenerate gamblers?

[/ QUOTE ]


What he said

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

you're right david, its much more admirable to nut-peddle a 20-40 LHE game and fold every hand in a tournament.

the thing with actual gambling (and not being a nit and writing books about it) is that you have to give action to get action. a strong gambler puts himself in spots where he isnt sure if he's the favorite.. maybe now everyone thinks daniel sucks at golf & non-poker wagering in general and he's cashing in big on this image. and maybe hes donating all his profits to cancer research. its a lot more complex than 'how can you admire the guy for making a bad bet' no one is saying 'i really admire daniel negreanu for losing a million on golf'

the people you should be more worried about are the guys who have cheated people out of millions of dollars and are revered by the public. thats a lot worse than making a stupid bet.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
is that you have to give action to get action

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this saying so much.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]

the thing with actual gambling (and not being a nit and writing books about it) is that you have to give action to get action. a strong gambler puts himself in spots where he isnt sure if he's the favorite.. maybe now everyone thinks daniel sucks at golf & non-poker wagering in general and he's cashing in big on this image. and maybe hes donating all his profits to cancer research. its a lot more complex than 'how can you admire the guy for making a bad bet' no one is saying 'i really admire daniel negreanu for losing a million on golf'

the people you should be more worried about are the guys who have cheated people out of millions of dollars and are revered by the public. thats a lot worse than making a stupid bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you talking about poker cheats?

As to your other statement, if your "maybes" are true then obviously it wouldn't apply in those cases. But then it would be off the subject. Meanwhile in the real world those "maybes" are just a rationalization in most cases. An excuse they say to themselves later. Do you really think Las Vegas golf hustlers won't reevaluate at the first sniff that things have changed? And way before thay have given back most of their money.

As for "you have got to give action to get action" there is the flipside that the opposite strategy allows for more successful bluffs. Except that the bluffer is more likely to have a innacurate reputation. Meanwhile the analysis of where to draw the line is covered quite well by a subject, Game Theory, that most gamblers are too lazy to learn.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

what it mostly boils down to is the fact that people are jealous of those who can gamble 500k on a single stroke or a turn of the card, and on the other side of that coin are the people who love to be on the receiving end of that jealously. i dont think people find nobility for those who gamble for absurd amounts of money, but it may seem that way because those degenerates hold their heads up high when sharing their story of how they busted their million dollar rolls. i think most would find this type of degeneracy disgusting, but do feel some admiration for these gamblers because theyre doing something they could only dream of. others feel hatred, but that is likely also the cause of jealously. the admiration of this degeneracy plays a large role of why high stakes games are often so good, and why so much money is fueled into the poker economy from outside economies. rich men admire these high rolling gamblers and its their jealously that leads to their donations at the poker tables.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

Gambling in general is contrary to distributive justice. Money is pooled and distributed in the hands of few, in part on the basis of luck.

Maybe an argument can be made that pooling the money in fewer hands: affords greater utility to the few that collect, greater utility is derived through the process for all participants, and utility is generated even for the losers who can rationalize the loss as the rejection of the material.

People more articulate than myself have expressed this notion, though I think John Rawls would reject a utilitarian argument and posit that affronts to distributive justice are not welcome in a well-ordered society.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gambling in general is contrary to distributive justice. Money is pooled and distributed in the hands of few, in part on the basis of luck.

Maybe an argument can be made that pooling the money in fewer hands: affords greater utility to the few that collect, utility through the process for all participants, and even utility for the losers who can rationalize the loss as the rejection of the material.

People more articulate than myself have expressed this notion, like John Rawls

[/ QUOTE ]


Thanks for the link - Rawls sets out some very interesting concepts that have really made me reconsider the economics and societal function of gambling.

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gambling in general is contrary to distributive justice. Money is pooled and distributed in the hands of few, in part on the basis of luck.

Maybe an argument can be made that pooling the money in fewer hands: affords greater utility to the few that collect, greater utility is derived through the process for all participants, and utility is generated even for the losers who can rationalize the loss as the rejection of the material.

People more articulate than myself have expressed this notion, though I think John Rawls would reject a utilitarian argument and posit that affronts to distributive justice are not welcome in a well-ordered society.

[/ QUOTE ]

That one was a genuine pleasure. Well done.

David, do you think gambling has ANY social value at all ?
 

I happen to agree with you, but question whether you think gambling has any social value at all.

If so, would it be:

1. Entertainment value,
2. Reallocation of capital from non-productive gamblers to casino owners, smart players, ....
3. ???

You imply that shifting capital from "edge-stupid" miilionaires to someone with an appreciation for having "an edge" serves no social purpose.

Why ?

Re: Stupidly Gambling For Millions Is Admirable?
 

I wouldn't say its admirable but it is exciting.
For a large majority of people its a bad idea and its foolish.

The math just doesn't add up when you factor in taxes, expenses and emotional well being with the huge swings and variance of ultra high stakes.