so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

not really soon...more like 2.5 years.

i played poker professionally for about 18 months, but due to boredom, a desire for intellectual stimulation, and societal pressure i decided to enter law school. i am currently attending a top 25 law school in the northeast. i really like it so far. i have always enjoyed intellectual challenges/pursuits and i get plenty of that in law school.

the only problem is that i don't see myself practicing. the main reason for this is that the potential income to be earned is actually not very appealing - at least not for someone who played poker professionally. indeed, what i made in the last 6 months from poker is much more than even a seasoned lawyer at a large firm makes in a year.

secondly, practicing entails long hours of often tedious work.

so getting to my question finally: what is the best way to utilize a law degree if one doesn't want to practice? especially if one has approximately $200k in capital saved with very little expenses?

just looking to have some ideas thrown around/engage in a dialogue. i'd appreciate any insight.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

I hear from many varied sources that law school is pretty much only good for being a lawyer. Unless you're really energized by the prospect of studying and practicing the law, I would suggest, based on my observations of other unmotivated students at non top 10 schools, that you take dropping out into serious consideration. As I understand it, job prospects are horrible for most law students in the event you change your mind.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hear from many varied sources that law school is pretty much only good for being a lawyer. Unless you're really energized by the prospect of studying and practicing the law, I would suggest, based on my observations of other unmotivated students at non top 10 schools, that you take dropping out into serious consideration. As I understand it, job prospects are horrible for most law students in the event you change your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. dropping out is a very real option at this point. basically the only reason i wouldn't is because i would feel like i failed.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Im no expert, but I dont imagine there are many careers that have entry level salaries in the 150k+ range (obv if you start to look at 10+ years out, the number goes up)

but, arent you pretty limited to some sort of a career in finance? (excluding entrep. type jobs)

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hear from many varied sources that law school is pretty much only good for being a lawyer. Unless you're really energized by the prospect of studying and practicing the law, I would suggest, based on my observations of other unmotivated students at non top 10 schools, that you take dropping out into serious consideration. As I understand it, job prospects are horrible for most law students in the event you change your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the opposite is true, especially if you're from a top-rated school. Remember the burnout rate for new lawyers (at least at top firms) is very high. Those lawyers certainly go on and do something worthwhile.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Flashback to 1999 and I'm basically in the same situation as OP. I could take an articling position at a Bay St firm or keep doing the sports betting / poker. Given I had already summered at a firm 2nd year I knew I did not like law. The practise of law represented 70-90 hour week for a tiny fraction of my income as a law student / gambler. The decision was easy I stayed in school accumulating more degrees I'd never use.

My advise would be finish the law degree. I have found it useful in that it gives me a certain level of credibility. Saying "I went to law school but now I bet on sports / play poker for a living" just seems to go over much better than just "I bet on sports / play poker". Mind you that was 99 and poker has gained a lot of legitimacy since then.

You are in first year now. I'd try to get good enough grades that you would get a summer position after 2nd year. That way you have your own first hand impression of what working in a major firm is like. That way you can make an informed decision at the end of year 3.

Other things that I'd take into consideration is the fact that 18 months is not a long time. I'd research how hard it would be and what you'd have to do to return to the practise of law should poker not work out for you. It might be very hard to impossible to get into a major firm after an absence.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? I'm fairly certain the opposite is true, especially if you're from a top-rated school. Remember the burnout rate for new lawyers (at least at top firms) is very high. Those lawyers certainly go on and do something worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for the US but in Canada if you don't get an articling position at one of the seven sisters (the biggest firms) you'll never get a job at one of them.

I was the silver medallist at my law school plus I have a pile of other degrees and plenty of contacts who would lobby for me and I still would estimate my chances at 25-30% of getting into a major firm after nor working for 8 years.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]

secondly, practicing entails long hours of often tedious work.


[/ QUOTE ]

This may be the most insight ever shown by a law student.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flashback to 1999 and I'm basically in the same situation as OP. I could take an articling position at a Bay St firm or keep doing the sports betting / poker. Given I had already summered at a firm 2nd year I knew I did not like law. The practise of law represented 70-90 hour week for a tiny fraction of my income as a law student / gambler. The decision was easy I stayed in school accumulating more degrees I'd never use.

My advise would be finish the law degree. I have found it useful in that it gives me a certain level of credibility. Saying "I went to law school but now I bet on sports / play poker for a living" just seems to go over much better than just "I bet on sports / play poker". Mind you that was 99 and poker has gained a lot of legitimacy since then.

You are in first year now. I'd try to get good enough grades that you would get a summer position after 2nd year. That way you have your own first hand impression of what working in a major firm is like. That way you can make an informed decision at the end of year 3.

Other things that I'd take into consideration is the fact that 18 months is not a long time. I'd research how hard it would be and what you'd have to do to return to the practise of law should poker not work out for you. It might be very hard to impossible to get into a major firm after an absence.

[/ QUOTE ]

great advice. thanks.

also, 18 months may not sound like alot but i still have 600k hands that say i poker will "work out for me" should i decide to go back to it. that is what is making the decision so hard...i wish i never played a hand of poker in my life.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

There was an article in the NY Times in just the past couple years talking about the fact that fewer law school grads are ever practicing law (I didn't find it with a quick search). The critical thinking/logical approach you learn, plus the degree, are attractive to a lot of different professions. I think if you spend some time looking for resources and reading about this you'll find it is worth your time.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Joker:

You have other options - you could become an investment banker depending on your school (top 10) and grades. But the work is still long and hard. In any entry level job, the salary is usually proportionate to the hours worked.

Nobody goes to law school for the year 1 salary, they go for the potential for partner level salary. A partner at a decent sized law firm in a major city will out earn 99% of professional poker players.

If you don't like the Law why are you in school? Unless the parents are paying for a freeroll - [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, 18 months may not sound like alot but i still have 600k hands that say i poker will "work out for me" should i decide to go back to it. that is what is making the decision so hard...i wish i never played a hand of poker in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had been playing poker and betting on sports for 7 years but when I finished law school and I still wasn't sure what I should do.

If 1998 hadn't been an insane year I probably would have gone into law. In 98 though I was making 60-80% of my first year salary every week. That never happened again. I still make very good money and am way ahead of what I would have made in law (plus much happier) but that just highlights the danger of using a single year of data for making decisions.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

If you don't like law, drop out now. If you don't like law school, you won't like practicing law. Practicing law is one of the most boring and tedious occupations on the face of the earth.

Take this advice from someone who has a law degree and hated practicing: Do something you love with your life, especially if you are young and don't have many responsibilities.

If later in life you realize that law might be your thing, you can always go back to law school.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Know how you feel Joker, I just turned down a couple scholarships to law schools in the states (I'm from Toronto) for this schoolyear to keep pursuing the internet money making world...and to decide if it's even worth it to go if you really don't have much desire to practice.

It's hard I think to really uncover if holding that degree will really benefit you in ways that 3 years of opportunity cost, x money if you're paying tuition, and a removal from your other interests, are an ev sacrifice and not a waste...especially considering 95% of the pop is conditioned to believe it's so great, which on one hand does mean it has the social value, jusitified or not, but if you have other interests or look kindly on other fields, just not sure law outweighs that. I really predict in our lifetime (...im 23) there will be a paradigm shift in how it's perceived by the general public, and maybe even their pockets.

Regardless, it's still a respectable field held in high regard, I think you're going to have to uncover it's real world non-practicing value for yourself, especially considering you already started, when you finish, should you decide to, at least then you'll know. I'm going to stay away from it for a couple years and see where my mind takes me, really hard to ignore the pressure of its social weight and utility though, so I know what you're going through.

After all, as was mentioned, it gives a great amount of credbility that could very well create lots of +ev in future ventures...unfortunate if you ask me, but, it really is seen as steps above to the general public...talk about people going for the wrong reasons, how about people putting the profession on a pedestal for the wrong and often inaccurate reasons.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

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Rich people are always talking about having lawyers to protect them from their other lawyers etc, so if I went to law school I tend to think I'd see through a lot of that and also have some good skills to utilize for tax planning, contracts, investments and the like. Is it possible to pick up the skills just going to law school?


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absolutely. this is one of the main reasons i went - so i can handle my major transactions/contracts throughout my life myself.

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If the answer is yes, then I say finish it. A financially independent, intelligent, motivated and enterprising young adult who is law school educated, will do better in the long run than one who is not law school educated, IMO, especially if those three years were currently assigned to doing nothing much.

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there is no doubt that a law degree will be very useful. what i'm trying to do is decide if it's so useful to justify the $120k it costs + the 3 years of income/experience that i am foregoing by attending.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody goes to law school for the year 1 salary, they go for the potential for partner level salary. A partner at a decent sized law firm in a major city will out earn 99% of professional poker players.

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i understand that the idea is to make partner eventually but 1. a pretty small % of lawyers actually end up making partner (i think around 10-15% or so) 2. you won't make partner until you have been worked to the bone for 10-15 years

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the Law why are you in school? Unless the parents are paying for a freeroll - .

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no - i like the law and enjoy very much learning about it. it is fascinating. that is actually the problem - i like learning about it but if i want to actually apply it to a career i'd have to wade through a bunch of BS before i could actually do the stuff i want (e.g. have my own clients and litigate their cases myself). also, i am paying for it 100% by myself with poker.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like law, drop out now. If you don't like law school, you won't like practicing law. Practicing law is one of the most boring and tedious occupations on the face of the earth.

Take this advice from someone who has a law degree and hated practicing: Do something you love with your life, especially if you are young and don't have many responsibilities.

If later in life you realize that law might be your thing, you can always go back to law school.

[/ QUOTE ]


thank you for the candid insight. however, as i said before i do enjoy law school and the law in an academic sense. i also like the idea of the power a law degree will give me (not some macho societal thing but rather the idea that i will have a leg up on people i negotiate/contract with in any pursuit i am engaged in).

that said, if i value a law degree in those senses, do you still recommend dropping out?

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

It all depends on what makes you happy I guess. I've personally never found having a law degree some special power or image to present to others. Most people just don't really care (and you have to listen to the lawyer jokes, lol). I suppose it makes some people feel better about themselves, but it sure is an expensive way in both time and money to make yourself feel better.

If you like law and want to make a career out of it, then stick with it. If you are doing it just so you can write J.D. behind your name, have a diploma on the wall to impress your friends or justify the other things in you are doing in your life, then get out now.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

"If you like law and want to make a career out of it, then stick with it. If you are doing it just so you can write J.D. behind your name, have a diploma on the wall to impress your friends or justify the other things in you are doing in your life, then get out now.
"

yeah this is a large reason i entertained the notion of law school years back, but that has since evolved into much more "genuine" reasons (mostly).

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

so far i don't have a class that is more practical than contracts. indeed, much of law school curriculum is designed to prepare you for a career practicing law (hence the dillema).

that is not to say the other classes don't have practical value outside of being a lawyer. Torts (another first year class) is pretty relevant to everyday life in the sense that it teaches you what you can be sued for/how to conduct yourself in certain scenarios so that you won't be sued/what you can sue other people for. that, to me, is a pretty powerful tool - to be in a comprimising situation and have the knowledge to do exactly what you should be doing to cover your as$.

i haven't taken Property yet but I would imagine that would be extremely practical.

civil procedure (again, a 1L class) informs you of all your rights in court (suing or being sued). that isn't much practical value though because you would have an attorney that would be taking care of all of that, but i can't help but feel like i'm learning very important information when i'm sitting in that class.

i can't really comment alot on this because i don't even have an entire semester under my belt. maybe some actual lawyers can add something or disillusion me.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If you like law and want to make a career out of it, then stick with it. If you are doing it just so you can write J.D. behind your name, have a diploma on the wall to impress your friends or justify the other things in you are doing in your life, then get out now.
"

yeah this is a large reason i entertained the notion of law school years back, but that has since evolved into much more "genuine" reasons (mostly).

[/ QUOTE ]

Most intelligent, successful, spirited people will learn to like...or at least appreciate what they are doing, and derive satisfaction and pleasure from it or what it represents, just the way it is.

Traditionally law was one of those things you just do and be happy about, whether things are just changing drastically and/or it's easier to get information about other opportunities etc, it is really clear that many people would be better off in other fields.

Some people will give you the "might-as-well's" considering you are already in the mix, others will tell u to stop now and go down the other path. Honestly, I really don't think there's an easy answer, you really will have to analyze your near future as best as possible for both decisions, and see what provides the greatest overall utility, happiness and ev...in the end, I really don't think it friggin matters if you have a law degree or not, you can deal, negotiate, etc etc without it. Not only is the information easily accessible, but you can always pay people to do it for you instead of spending 3 years and x money. Then again any way you look at it things are done for satisfication in one way or another, if you want this, and now that you're in it see that it is very much a great benefit for your future plans to at least have it, or have the ability to fall back on it considering...well then, it might be a "might as well".

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Not sure if I'm allowed to post this here and I apologize if not...you probably know about it anyway but www.lawschooldiscussion.org has a lot of great information. Plenty of students and lawyers with a wealth of insight and information about situations like yours. You would surely find it useful if you haven't already.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

yeah, good board except it's all law students/lawyers - i wanted to post on this board to probe some people who are out there doing things without a law degree and have noticed a law degree would help them do X.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flashback to 1999 and I'm basically in the same situation as OP. I could take an articling position at a Bay St firm or keep doing the sports betting / poker. Given I had already summered at a firm 2nd year I knew I did not like law. The practise of law represented 70-90 hour week for a tiny fraction of my income as a law student / gambler. The decision was easy I stayed in school accumulating more degrees I'd never use.

My advise would be finish the law degree. I have found it useful in that it gives me a certain level of credibility. Saying "I went to law school but now I bet on sports / play poker for a living" just seems to go over much better than just "I bet on sports / play poker". Mind you that was 99 and poker has gained a lot of legitimacy since then.

You are in first year now. I'd try to get good enough grades that you would get a summer position after 2nd year. That way you have your own first hand impression of what working in a major firm is like. That way you can make an informed decision at the end of year 3.

Other things that I'd take into consideration is the fact that 18 months is not a long time. I'd research how hard it would be and what you'd have to do to return to the practise of law should poker not work out for you. It might be very hard to impossible to get into a major firm after an absence.

[/ QUOTE ]

great advice. thanks.

also, 18 months may not sound like alot but i still have 600k hands that say i poker will "work out for me" should i decide to go back to it. that is what is making the decision so hard...i wish i never played a hand of poker in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flashback to 2006 and I am in the exact same position as the OP and henry (minus the sports betting).

I graduate Osgoode Hall in 6 months and I don't have an articling position, I don't care much for poker anymore beyond the odd tournament, and plan to quit playing as soon as I finish school (it basically paid for all my tuition, beer, car, etc etc through law school, and I'm happy to graduate debt free, but at this point I need something more).

I have about 100k in capital saved up.

ADVICE PLZ.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
so far i don't have a class that is more practical than contracts. indeed, much of law school curriculum is designed to prepare you for a career practicing law (hence the dillema).

that is not to say the other classes don't have practical value outside of being a lawyer. Torts (another first year class) is pretty relevant to everyday life in the sense that it teaches you what you can be sued for/how to conduct yourself in certain scenarios so that you won't be sued/what you can sue other people for. that, to me, is a pretty powerful tool - to be in a comprimising situation and have the knowledge to do exactly what you should be doing to cover your as$.

i haven't taken Property yet but I would imagine that would be extremely practical.

civil procedure (again, a 1L class) informs you of all your rights in court (suing or being sued). that isn't much practical value though because you would have an attorney that would be taking care of all of that, but i can't help but feel like i'm learning very important information when i'm sitting in that class.

i can't really comment alot on this because i don't even have an entire semester under my belt. maybe some actual lawyers can add something or disillusion me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like an Ontario law student, these courses are all mandatory in 1L in Ontario.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like learning about it but if i want to actually apply it to a career i'd have to wade through a bunch of BS before i could actually do the stuff i want (e.g. have my own clients and litigate their cases myself)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily.

Find a smaller litigation boutique firm. The big firms won't let you touch the important [censored] with a 10-meter pole, but network and find a small firm with 6 lawyers that doesn't do OCIs in 2nd year and you'll get loads of person-to-person interaction...

At least, that's what Ive been told by other lawyers all the way through.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are doing it just so you can write J.D. behind your name, have a diploma on the wall to impress your friends or justify the other things in you are doing in your life, then get out now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

But in Canada (except U of Toronto which may as well be an American school anyway) we call it an LL.B.. It's a 50% better degree. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Find a smaller litigation boutique firm. The big firms won't let you touch the important [censored] with a 10-meter pole, but network and find a small firm with 6 lawyers that doesn't do OCIs in 2nd year and you'll get loads of person-to-person interaction...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with small firms is that the pay sucks.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

Ask three questions to get your answer:

1. What would I do if I no longer had to worry about money?
2. What have I achieved that has given me satisfaction and a feeling of importance?
3. What would I do if success were guaranteed?

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

OMFG.

You have 200K saved and you're in law school, but have no intention of actually being a lawyer? I don't know how you take your coursework seriously, dude.

I bet 95 % of your classmates, if they were in your position, wouldn't be in law school. No one wants to spend their days in a law office.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

I graduated from law school, worked at a firm more or less full time during my second and third years, and practiced law for 8 years after that. IMO while you learn something in law school about the law, it isn't nearly enough to have a real understanding about how the legal process works that would allow you to have confidence in your opinions about legal issues in whatever situations you find yourself in -- only practicing law for a number of years gets you to that point.

Additionally, since the practice of law is so specialized, while having a law degree will allow you to have much more intelligent conversations with your attorneys, I don't think it will ever obviate the need for having an attorney in a given situation. Also, to the extent that you want to have a law degree as some sort of backup plan in case your current endeavors don't work out, I think practicing for a number of years right out of law school is the only way to make yourself an attractive candidate to prospective employers.

My general opinion is that a law degree is useful if you want to practice law, if you want to be a businessperson (since so much of what you do is law-related and it will allow you to make better decisions based on the advice of your attorneys), or if you want to be a politician. Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the effort and cost, although getting a law degree isn't particularly challenging compared to say getting a Ph.D. or medical degree. It certainly is expensive though.

Re: so i\'ll have a law degree soon...
 

I'm in similar situation. I graduate from law school in a month. After about a year of law school I was pretty sure I would never practice. I decided to still finish my degree because it didnt require a lot of effort and having the degree still had value to me. I would have felt like a bit of a failure in some ways even if I made say 10 million playing poker. School was also good for me in that it balanced my life a little, and got me out of the house. During law school I would estimate I still played a minimum of 50 hours a week of poker so I was mostly full time poker and doing just enuf to get by in school