QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

CO is jalexand42, running at about 23/20. I'm a nit (like 16/14) and we talk poker a lot so he knows this. We tend to stay out of each others' way at the tables.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $383.10
BB: $394.00
Hero (UTG): $709.00
MP: $392.60
CO: $480
BTN: $392.30

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $14.00</font>, MP folds, CO calls $14.00, BTN calls $14.00, SB calls $12.00, BB folds

Flop: ($60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $42.00</font>, CO calls $42.00, 2 folds

Turn: ($144) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero needs a plan

Just for fun, evaluate the best action in each of these two scenarios (as well as whether I should check or bet turn):

Turn: ($144) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $110</font>, Hero...

Turn: ($144) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $110</font>, <font color="red">CO is all-in $424</font>

If I bet turn and he calls, or if I check-call turn, what's my river plan? I assume I'm checking pretty much any riv since I don't see myself getting called on a 3barrel with worse hands here and all I can really do is bluffcatch. So, I'm c/f any spade? What about 5/7/8/T/J/K since any of those complete a possible OESD or double gutter?

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Don't chk/call turn. Bet/allin riv if you know he always raises turn obv.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

C/r turn on the 1st one. I'm like 100% sure you are ahead here on both situations.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

bet/fold works here

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

depends on the other players in the hands, would you suspect that he would raise a draw on the flop? because i doubt you're getting much value out of worse pairs if you bet the turn

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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bet/fold works here

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agree. and i probably cf the river if called.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

i think bet-fold too. if he's gonna make a move on you with a worse hand, its probably gonna be on the flop. unless you've got a high 2-barrel frequency in this spot.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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bet/fold works here

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Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet/fold works here

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yep.

there's two players behind jalex on the flop. if he's making a move, it's pretty sick. i'd put him on AQ/KQ here a lot though.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

I don't mind b/f at all. I like c/f as well, fwiw. Checkraising the turn would basically be a bluff (which may work, but I wouldn't be too sure).

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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I don't mind b/f at all. I like c/f as well, fwiw. Checkraising the turn would basically be a bluff (which may work, but I wouldn't be too sure).

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Check/raising could actually be ok. Villain might fold KQ or even AQ at the same time it give an opportunity to get one more bet out of his draws without him even getting to see the river. It kinda depends on what villain think hero's c-betting range is.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Isn't it safe to say that he has a draw like 99% of time considering how the flop action went? If so why bet/fold on a blank turn?

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

b/f is so gross imo.

If you're gonna bet, I think its definitely b/c. I don't think it's very close either.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

crai is good also c/f

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Seems like draws are a huge part of his range so I'd prolly c/r all in.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

b/c is clearly better if we know he has a draw

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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Seems like draws are a huge part of his range so I'd prolly c/r all in.

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I don't get this.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

id rather not say what id do since jalex reads this lol. just dont fold really.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Ain't no party like a butt naked party

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Well, I guess it's fairly standard that I took the worst line here:

Turn: ($144) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $116</font>, Hero calls.

I figured that 4 ways on a super drawy board he's not flatting a monster like a set on the flop, and if he does, that's life. Why I didn't go one step further with this and say "wait, if he has a draw, then I should charge him to see more cardz with it lol!" and shove, I have no idea.

Anyway, plans on river?

River: ($376) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO is all-in $308</font>, Hero...

River: ($376) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO is all-in $308</font>, Hero...

River: ($376) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO is all-in $308</font>, Hero...

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

call 1, fold 2,3.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

c/f or b/f.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

[ QUOTE ]
call 1, fold 2,3.

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yea, that seems like the obvious choice because draws did or did not get there. but I think its a little trickier than that. The fact that our line is a little weird doesnt help, as we've got a tougher time figuring what he puts us on.

On the one hand, 2 and 3 allow him to fire the third barrel because a draw and/or overcard came in, so he should be firing it light against our weak made hands to blow us out. similarly, 1 makes no such draw, so he shouldnt bluff our weak made hands as much, as we're more likely to call.

on the other hand, if he puts us on a draw, he's likely to fire all three if his hand lacks good showdown value, but only fire 2/3 if he thinks he has a strong enough hand to valuebet


given that we c/c a pretty sizeable bet on the turn oop, he's gotta put us on a hand with some showdown value, which maybe makes it even tougher, because its somewhere between the two sections.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

given its 4 to the flop and goofy has a notoriously nitty image, jalex calling a cbet first to act should actually show more strength than usual. i dont think he would turn a made hand into a bluff on scare card rivs.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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call 1, fold 2,3.

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Why do you think the 3 makes the river a call while 2 is a fold?

FWIW I think they're all a fold.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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call 1, fold 2,3.

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Why do you think the 3 makes the river a call while 2 is a fold?

FWIW I think they're all a fold.

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Flush...

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Oh yeah. Would've helped if Goofy posted the board in that post but w/e.

I still think they're all a fold though. And if I checked the turn I wouldn't be looking to call a bet either.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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if he's gonna make a move on you with a worse hand, its probably gonna be on the flop

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there's two players behind jalex on the flop. if he's making a move, it's pretty sick.

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There's zero behind on the turn. Don't you think that would embolden delayed semi-bluffs?

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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given its 4 to the flop and goofy has a notoriously nitty image, jalex calling a cbet first to act should actually show more strength than usual. i dont think he would turn a made hand into a bluff on scare card rivs.

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You really think he'll have any made hands worse than QJ on the river? Can't see what made hand he's calling the c-bet with given hero's image and that the flop was 4-ways.

Fwiw I'd definately call 1, and most likely fold the other two. Can't see many better hands he can have on the river scenario 1.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

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crai is good also c/f

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c/f seems so weak but it may actually be best if you dont think a c/r gets AQ and KQ out. If you think he has a draw here a ton then, I like the c/r.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

goofy needs a strong hand to c-bet here - jalex can't call with a draw and then figure that raising a bet on the turn will be +EV. It won't be.

however, I like goofy's line since a bet also has little value on the turn, given that jalex is probably not calling with draws either, and he's calling or raising all better hands.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

I thought you said you had KK. :P

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Serious questions....

Why does his flat call on the flop with people to act behind represent a big hand over a draw? Would a draw never peel one, especially with players yet to act, hoping to give them odds to peel as well, thus giving him great odds on his draw/possible combo draw (all while disguising his hand)?

Also, if we new he had a draw on the turn, c/r isn't as bad as its made out to be. We can't always count on him bluffing the river if he missed. It seems just as likely that he calls the raise to gamble, no?

Thanks for clearing all that up...

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

FullTiltPoker : Table Triest (6 max) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:42:10 ET - 2007/09/30
Seat 1: twoer1 ($394)
Seat 2: droolbag ($709)
Seat 3: twoer2 ($392.60)
Seat 4: HibachiMahi ($560)
Seat 5: twoer3 ($392.30)
Seat 6: fishy ($383.10)
fishy posts the small blind of $2
twoer1 posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HibachiMahi []
droolbag raises to $14
twoer2 has 15 seconds left to act
twoer2 folds
HibachiMahi calls $14
twoer3 calls $14
fishy calls $12
twoer1 folds
*** FLOP *** [9h 6s Qs]
fishy checks
droolbag has 15 seconds left to act
droolbag bets $42
HibachiMahi has 15 seconds left to act
HibachiMahi calls $42
twoer3 folds
fishy folds
*** TURN *** [9h 6s Qs] [2c]
droolbag checks
HibachiMahi bets $116
droolbag has 15 seconds left to act
droolbag calls $116
*** RIVER *** [9h 6s Qs 2c] [5s]
droolbag checks
HibachiMahi bets $388, and is all in


Just for kicks, here's the real hand with slightly different stacks. :P

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

Still looking for someone to clear up things here.....

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why does his flat call on the flop with people to act behind represent a big hand over a draw? Would a draw never peel one, especially with players yet to act, hoping to give them odds to peel as well, thus giving him great odds on his draw/possible combo draw (all while disguising his hand)?

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I expect people can peel here with draws, made hands, and sometimes air (less likely with people behind).

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Also, if we new he had a draw on the turn, c/r isn't as bad as its made out to be.

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Too bad you don't know if I have a draw. :P

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We can't always count on him bluffing the river if he missed. It seems just as likely that he calls the raise to gamble, no?

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Um, depends on stacks and odds of a draw hitting with one card to come. I wouldn't intentionally call a raise without odds just to gamboooool.

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

I think c/r is the best option here since its doubtful he has a very strong hand which would smooth call in a multi way pot on a flop like that, if he has a draw - u get one more bet from him and i think kq folds here a lot and aq also folds a decent amount of the time

Re: QJ hits top pair on drawy board vs jalexand42
 

All I was implying with my questions was that:

a) This board is VERY draw heavy yet not very 2purr friendly. Very important quality.
b) Your flat call PF allows me to put lesser value on certain hands (namely 99,QQ,AQ). This is not to dismiss these hands. Just give less weight in your range of holdings.
c) Because this flop has 'float' written all over it, the chances of you betting if checked to seems fairly likely.
d) My point about a c/r not being bad if we did know you had a draw was because many always think like, 'if we knew he had a worse hand, why would we want him to fold' and crap like that without taking into consideration the context of the entire hand. Here, we may get you to commit on the turn with a c/r with an inferior hand, whereas if we call we may get no action on the river that we want.
e) If you are putting in any money on the turn, I think you are going with it on that street. Odds seem to be there.
f) Sure you can have KQ, 2purr, or a set but my decision on whether or not to stack off here is on the turn. I am not putting in any money if I am not willing to put in all my money. So b/f seems ridiculous given this board.

I just want to reinforce what I wrote in my first post that I think you call the flop with a draw far more then you raise with one. Obviously the strength of your draw will vary your decision on this. Conversely, I feel you raise the flop with hands that beat us more often then not.