Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

Someone in another poker forum suggested that this topic be posted on 2+2, so I figured that I would do the honors. Your opinions are appreciated.

http://www.wptfan.com/article.php?st...70809081004553

Hello all, this is my first post in quite a while. What do you think of my play in this $50 sig-n-go?

4 players left, blinds are 200/400
Gee_Man - 6,000
player 2 - 3,300
player 3 - 3,400
player 4 - 800

I'm in the small blind, player 2 folds, player 3 folds. I have AA and fold my small blind to player 4.

My fold allowed player 4 to stay in. I then pounded the blinds of player 2 and 3 (they were tight wanting to make the money). By the time player 4 finally went out I had almost all the chips.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I never played sit and go in my life, but did you just fold aces preflop?

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never played sit and go in my life, but did you just fold aces preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not me. I'm just the one who decided to post this here.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

Don't fold AA EVAR in a STT!

Perhaps 3 years ago you could do this with reads. Maaaaaybe.

Yugoslav

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I wouldn't fold any hand here unless I had some really solid nitty reads on 2nd and 3rd stacks.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

If I may emphasize on behalf of this person, his rationale for folding was this:

My fold allowed player 4 to stay in. I then pounded the blinds of player 2 and 3 (they were tight wanting to make the money). By the time player 4 finally went out I had almost all the chips.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

we understand

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

There have been similar posts to this, just not with AA...I like the play, because even if he's calling all the time when you push AA, you're winning about 85% of the time and winning 800 chips for an expected 680 chips on the push. If you fold the small blind to him, due to the bubble effect the other players will be forced to fold nearly every hand and you can expect much more than 680 chips. For this reason, I think this is a good play, nh.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
There have been similar posts to this, just not with AA...I like the play, because even if he's calling all the time when you push AA, you're winning about 85% of the time and winning 800 chips for an expected 680 chips on the push. If you fold the small blind to him, due to the bubble effect the other players will be forced to fold nearly every hand and you can expect much more than 680 chips. For this reason, I think this is a good play, nh.

[/ QUOTE ]


no one is forced to do anything; as sippin touched on, without specific reads, making this assumption at a low buy in game can be suicidal. just because theyre expected to play better in this spot does not mean that they will

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I don't think it's a good play. How long is the guy with 2BBs going to be around? It's not like he can afford to wait for aces.

Plus one of the other stacks can push into the big stack and the big stack can't spite call. Afterall the big stack is all about making +EV plays right and some spite calls are going to be -5% or more depending on how tight the others push ranges are.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

Good point; although, even if you steal blinds once because of this bubble effect you're maintaining, you should be indifferent to making this play or not making this play.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

The small stack still has $38 in equity. You gain $12 knocking him out. You gain $7 stealing the blinds once when the 3400 and 3300 guy are in the blinds.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

this is a known sng strategy to answer the post Title.

its debatable what the highest EV move is. but folding is at the worst neutral. if im in a good mood i make this fold sometimes...

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

It's not terrible obv, because you may still get some steal opportunities, but there are problems with it.

For one, he's really short even after you give him your 200. So, often times he won't be around that long.

Secondly, most people still can't fold 88+, AT+ when your obviously shoving wide.

Finally, he is to your immediate left. So, you will have to shove through him every time you steal. So, you're steals won't be as affective. Also, if the shorty calls you, the other stacks can profitable call ur any two card shoves very wide.

I'd like this a lot more if he was to your right.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

Lol this guy is living in fantasy land. Run bad much there buddy? You won't be folding when the dude with t3400 instacalls next hand with Q7o.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I just went and read most of the linked discussion.

Whether this play is good or bad, 95% of the people in that thread have no clue as to explain why.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone in another poker forum suggested that this topic be posted on 2+2, so I figured that I would do the honors. Your opinions are appreciated.

http://www.wptfan.com/article.php?st...70809081004553

Hello all, this is my first post in quite a while. What do you think of my play in this $50 sig-n-go?

4 players left, blinds are 200/400
Gee_Man - 6,000
player 2 - 3,300
player 3 - 3,400
player 4 - 800

I'm in the small blind, player 2 folds, player 3 folds. I have AA and fold my small blind to player 4.

My fold allowed player 4 to stay in. I then pounded the blinds of player 2 and 3 (they were tight wanting to make the money). By the time player 4 finally went out I had almost all the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a nice hand in theory, but assuming the other two middle stacks are folding ATC is probably a poor one. People LOVE AT+ and HATE being bullied, even at the cost of EV.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I like this a lot better if BB has between 400 and 201 chips.

Whenever I make plays like this(although I never fold this strong a hand) the shortstack calls my next push with like A3 anyway

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

looool, that discussion is hilarious.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

the idea is ok but the situation is poor

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I like the fold if the blinds go up to 300/600 next hand.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I think the biggest problem in folding is that when you do you're going to finish ootm once in a while (obviously you still will if you shove here but much less). The equity gained by being itm > equity gained by being able to pound the blinds in almost any situation...

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

I agree with the above posts, if we were playing a high level sng where the 2 mid stacks are aware of ICM, then sure this maybe a good play.

Most of us don't have that luxury, I know at the party 22's unless the mid stacks are about two of the 10 players who have any idea about bubble play. Im getting called by rag aces and the lot. Then normally they will type something witty in the chat box, ok slightly off topic but god i hate retards who do that.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

i like this situation much better when we've got a huge stack and we're going to continue to pound on the rest of the table because while everyone's short, they're all still fighting to be ITM so stealing blinds on the next orbit is that much easier and we'll be able to pick up 1400+ with little to no resistance since everyone's folding for their lives.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

also, lol at some of the awful responses some of the people came up with.. i think raptor started a thread about this a few years ago right?

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

To summarize here we are folding AA preflop in order to keep someone in the hand, under the false assumption that we can bully and pwn the bubble? Ummm....
NO...That's just stupid here..

(FYI, next time list the hand like this)

player 2 - 3,300
player 3 - 3,400
Gee_Man - 6,000
player 4 - 800

Just take player 4 out and use your stack to crush the two remaining players.

Had this been the situation
Gee_Man - 6,000
player 2 - 3,300
player 3 - 3,400
player 4 - 800

I would raise to 800 hoping to trap, otherwise shove.

This whole concept is based on two players rolling over and dying, if that's the case it really does not matter much what you do. As played if the NITs wake up with a decent hand you'll double them up and be sorry that shorty is still around. Results mean nothing, even if it worked out this time.. I can't see this as being a +EV

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

Hi Guys,

I think the most relevant point here is DevinLake's:

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, he is to your immediate left. So, you will have to shove through him every time you steal. So, you're steals won't be as affective. Also, if the shorty calls you, the other stacks can profitable call ur any two card shoves very wide.

I'd like this a lot more if he was to your right.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know the two moderate stacks will correctly lay down almost ATC to your steals, then this play has merit. Not necessarily correct, but an interesting and analytic approach to exploiting bubble play. But the extreme short stack being directly to your left ruins the golden stealing opportunities you would otherwise have over the other two players, so I would definitely make the conventional play here and put your chips in with the A A.

Best Regards,
Collin

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

From the thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and please go post this on 2p2... not only will you get fun responses, but maybe even some MS Paint! Theories like this deserve more exposure than wptfan.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's get to it!

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm you've missed the point... or this is some dumb trolling level.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm you've missed the point... or this is some dumb trolling level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually only trolls would think there was a point.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]

Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

If you have the right opponents.... I've done this too, especially in live MTTs on the bubble.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]
Missed the point quite spectacularly there.

[ QUOTE ]
There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is not the time to fold AA. The odds will pretty much always justify it unless you're in a satellite or a weird (effective) bubble situation of the type that you clearly don't understand from your comment above.

[ QUOTE ]
Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]
The OP outlines his reasons for folding AA preflop and you want to make a load of irrelevant (and incorrect) points in response. ROFLMAO.



In response to the OP - nice idea, wrong situation. Shortie isn't short enough, and you aren't deep enough compared to the medium stacks.

Shortie has to go in soon with limited FE - if he loses we want to be the one with his chips and if he doubles then all three will all have to open up more with the size of these blinds, so there are limited steal opportunities left. May as well get it to ITM with a bigger chip lead.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you know the two moderate stacks will correctly lay down almost ATC to your steals, then this play has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Collin, I think that's the problem, the "almost". This play has no merit if villians play correctly.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you know the two moderate stacks will correctly lay down almost ATC to your steals, then this play has merit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Collin, I think that's the problem, the "almost". This play has no merit if villians play correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more correctly the villains play, the more viable this play becomes.

But I think Collin is right that the shorty being on the left is a problem here.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
This play has no merit if villians play incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

...surely?

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
This has got to be the most stupid play of all time.... so let me put this in another way.... the "Hero" is himself SO SCARED of getting out that he is folding AA IN THE HOPE that the other 2 players cooperate(which he didn't know they would) and get the low stack out!?!? LMAO

There is NO JUSTIFICATION EVER to fold AA, not against 1 player, 2, 3, or full table, unless everyone's all in and it's free for all then you can fold it since odds don't justify.

Against 1 player who has tiny stack and you want to fold AA? LMAO

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you posted this on in the original thread that the OP linked.

You were confused other there as well.

you've completely missed the point to play. It has nothing do with being scared. Quite the contrary. He is not scared at all, which is why he is willing to keep the bubble alive in order to continue to abuse the medium stack.

Again, this play has merit. But, I don't think the stacks are distributed right in this specific example for it to be overly effective. I still think it's probably +EV though.

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

LMAO

So I must have posted on the other forum as well? Wanna bet your life on that? Wait.. wouldn't want you to die here ;-)

I missed the point as many of you say? The point being on the bubble with AA you FOLD against short stack, not even limp?? hahaha

My guess is there's a bunch of low stakes n00bs here.. I'll move along now ;-) Ask Sklansky what he thinks of weak-tight players and those that back them up...... ;-))))

Re: Advanced S&G strategy? Or pure idiocy....
 

[ QUOTE ]
LMAO

So I must have posted on the other forum as well? Wanna bet your life on that? Wait.. wouldn't want you to die here ;-)

I missed the point as many of you say? The point being on the bubble with AA you FOLD against short stack, not even limp?? hahaha

My guess is there's a bunch of low stakes n00bs here.. I'll move along now ;-) Ask Sklansky what he thinks of weak-tight players and those that back them up...... ;-))))

[/ QUOTE ]

Dreamcircus, we only wake you up for the important meetings.