50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $51.85
BB: $30.55
UTG: $50.60
MP: $105.45
CO: $57.05
EMc (BTN): $49.00

Preflop: EMc is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">EMc raises to $2.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">CO bets $6.25</font>,

EMC does what?

Reads: Villian is like 16/5/2 over a small ass sample. Note my PFR size is small, twas an accident

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

i'd call and re eval

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Raises to 18, folds to a shove from BB and gets allin with CO.

- If BB cold-calls, I shut down to any non-spade turn.
- If BB folds and CO calls the raise, I shove any non-spade turn.

Kinda backwards, but I think it makes sense in my head. Although in the actual game I probably shove any turn vs CO.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

call. position, multiway, pick up draw on turn/A on turn, smallish pot, scary flop, nitty opponent, BB still gets to act.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

This definitely screams big hand to me. Could be JT or an overpair, possibly also AJ or KsQs. I don't think a naked flush draw would bet quite that big. AK or something is also unlikely.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

CO limps a lot of hands, it's not necessarily 22, and it doesn't have to be JT. It's definitely not an overpair, and it's not TT/JJ. There are a bunch of connectors and we're beating all but 89s and KQs (even money or 47/53 or something I think)..

I don't like flatting here because there are a lot of turn cards that we don't like. Raising here also makes it tougher for BB to tag along (sure we might want him to but I'd rather see this turn HU than 3-way).. I just don't see how flatting here is good. We're most likely ahead, but vulnerable.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

i agree with thac. you need to define your hand here. if CO shoves, you have to call because there are just so many draws out there. if BB shoves, you still have to call because he has so little left. you basically have to go all the way with this hand.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

I would have raised to 2.50 but thats not really important. Villians range is enormous. I dont think he could open limp / call a iso raise w/ JJ or TT so im gonna eliminate that from his range. You have the A of spades so Axs spades is out. I put him on any J , like J8+ , KQ, Q9, 89, or 22.

against this range you have alot of equity, from all of the possibly top pair/open enders. You are beat by JT but you have outs on him and your really only super smoked by 22, I would reraise here to about between $16-$25 and call a shove. If he would have raised pf and called ur 3 bet then check raised u it would be a very different situation. The limp pf/donk bet makes me think you are ahead right now.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Folding in this spot is poor given the fd/sd/pairs that make up CO's range. You are definitely ahead of a large part of his range.

Raising is just as bad because it folds out all of the hands you can extract value from.

Calling with the intent of re-evaluating the turn is the best line to take here.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Yes, he limps lots of hands but once he bets full pot into two people before the pre-flop raiser has acted I give him some credit. Of course we have a good hand, also. Just don't expect him to have air or a weak draw all that often.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

co's range looks like combo draws/JT/22/air. if we get it in here we are probably looking at being slight favorite or a sizable dog. i prefer to just call

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he limps lots of hands but once he bets full pot into two people before the pre-flop raiser has acted I give him some credit. Of course we have a good hand, also. Just don't expect him to have air or a weak draw all that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how you can assume a 16/5 unknown is solid and doesn't get it in lightly or go crazy postflop.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he limps lots of hands but once he bets full pot into two people before the pre-flop raiser has acted I give him some credit. Of course we have a good hand, also. Just don't expect him to have air or a weak draw all that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how you can assume a 16/5 unknown is solid and doesn't get it in lightly or go crazy postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying we should fold here but to automatically assume a 16/5 unknown is a spewtard is probably not really healthy in the long run.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he limps lots of hands but once he bets full pot into two people before the pre-flop raiser has acted I give him some credit. Of course we have a good hand, also. Just don't expect him to have air or a weak draw all that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are over thinking and giving too much respect to the unl donk bet.

You have to reraise in this spot as this is one pair more often than not.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

But to say he's only felting with 2 pair or a set is also not healthy in the long run. I generally call vs an unknown because it's a buyin and I can definitely note how he plays afterwards.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]

Raising is just as bad because it folds out all of the hands you can extract value from.


[/ QUOTE ]

ya it might get him to lay KJ or QJ , but by calling we are not punishing the draws. I think he is donk betting pot because he WANTS you to fold. If he had JT or 22 I think like 75% of the time villian goes for a checkraise. raising and winning this 25+bb pot w/o showdown puts a smile on my face

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Calling here, imo, is the worst option. Any spade, 8, 9, T, J, Q, or K comes and we're ???

I think we absolutely have to raise. We don't want BB tagging along getting 3:1 immediate odds on his draw (assuming here).

Too many of you are weak tight here. Call and reevaluate on the turn? If half the deck comes you're hating the spot you put yourself in, therefore, avoid doing so and raise, calling a push from CO.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

What do people think of a min raise here?

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $51.85
BB: $30.55
UTG: $50.60
MP: $105.45
CO: $57.05
EMc (BTN): $49.00

Preflop: EMc is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">EMc raises to $2.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">CO bets $6.25</font>,

EMC does what?

Reads: Villian is like 16/5/2 over a small ass sample. Note my PFR size is small, twas an accident

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch.

I hate placing players on a single hand, but this is like AJ almost always. He also might be one of the players who hates QQ and limped with it. I'm generally not afraid of two-pair here, but if we showdown and he does indeed show JT, I'll note it appropriately.

This is one of those very very very very few places I will put in a min-raise to push out the BB and still get a call from this guy. I intend to call a re-raise all in on the flop. If the BB cold calls the raise, then we really have to evaluate the turn and possibly quit our hand.

If he flats your min-raise, you should have PSB left on the turn and I will get the dough in here.

This is based solely on analysis of betting patterns of donk-bets and I've found that PSB's on the flop indicate top-pair or an overpair. On Txx flops, AT, KT, and JJ,QQ will often pot it.

This obviously is against typical/average not so great players who are not 2p2'ers.

Again, I hate putting him on a single hand, and it's arguably a mistake, but based on his raising range and donk-bet size, he has a J. Maybe we can give him AJ, KJ(sometimes spades), KQ(somtimes spades), QJ(sometimes spades), and possibliy QQ if he plays it weakly, for a range, but it's almost never JT or a set unless we have notes that indicates he fast plays.

The only hands we are behind are KJs and QJs (if we get it all in), but balancing that with other non-suited combos, we are ahead overall.

You already noted it, but putting in the extra $0.50 would make his first PSB larger, making your min-raise even scarier to the BB, and making it easier to make &lt; PSB on turn.

My .25/.50 cents, FWIW.

Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary with the above. Batteries not included. I'm a uNL player, so what do I know. Contains soy products.

Edit: Some fixes, and an extra hand added to the range. I know I started the posted with one hand and ended with more, so I guess I can't help but use ranges now. Go me.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling here, imo, is the worst option. Any spade, 8, 9, T, J, Q, or K comes and we're ???

I think we absolutely have to raise. We don't want BB tagging along getting 3:1 immediate odds on his draw (assuming here).

Too many of you are weak tight here. Call and reevaluate on the turn? If half the deck comes you're hating the spot you put yourself in, therefore, avoid doing so and raise, calling a push from CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god, someone that isn't w/t

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling here, imo, is the worst option. Any spade, 8, 9, T, J, Q, or K comes and we're ???

I think we absolutely have to raise. We don't want BB tagging along getting 3:1 immediate odds on his draw (assuming here).

Too many of you are weak tight here. Call and reevaluate on the turn? If half the deck comes you're hating the spot you put yourself in, therefore, avoid doing so and raise, calling a push from CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god, someone that isn't w/t

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference from my game 3 weeks ago til now. Then again, I've since moved up to 100NL....

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Can you post the rest of the street or will this give away too much?

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

trigg,

MY concern here at first is my action. No one has still responded to my suggestion of a min raise, the pros and the cons. We have seen arguments for calling, raising PSB or close, im sure some nit said fold.

I will post the rest of the action and the turn later.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

A minraise sucks because if CO has a draw he's not getting punished nearly enough. Sure he calls with QJ or KJ, but I'm sure he calls a bigger raise with them too. This also allows BB to come along cheaper. I kinda stated this when I discussed why calling was bad, but I'd rather have this turn be HU, rather then see a 9 peel off when we're 3-way. I don't see the advantages of a minraise except getting off cheaper when BB shoves (which is really really rare IMO). I'd rather raise more and get more money in when I'm probably ahead rather than call or minraise and get less money in when I am pretty sure I'm ahead.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

ok,

Thats that then.

As you can see, I min-raised. I felt as if it allowed me to play perfectly, as it he will likely 3 bet shove a set here, if the turn does bring a spade, I have a re-draw and if he called on the spade draw i have spade re-draw.

So....

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $51.85
BB: $30.55
UTG: $50.60
MP: $105.45
CO: $57.05
EMc (BTN): $49.00

Preflop: EMc is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">EMc raises to $2.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">CO bets $6.25</font>, <font color="red">EMc raises to $12.50</font>, BB folds, CO calls $6.25

Turn: ($31.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
CO checks, EMc ?

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Minraise I dont like in this spot, because he will fold all his single pairs, call profitably with draws and raise with hands that beat you

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Since CO just called, I think KQ is in his range, 98 is as well.. as are made flushes. I don't think he just calls the minraise with JT or 22.. this is a difficult spot but I think checking behind and calling any river is pretty decent.

edit - We only have like ~35 left, so we could shove I guess, but I think it folds way too many hands and we could only hope for a call from KsQx or something I think.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Well, since you decided to play it this way (which I completely disagree with), I think you either push here or check behind on the turn and either call the push on the river or bet/push the river yourself.

This is the spot that you would have avoided had you made a real raise on the turn. I think you put yourself in a bad spot and now you're ??? because of it.

Hopefully you learn from this. GL.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

raise/call push.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Don't you see why playing it this way is/was a bad idea? you have since given villain 4:1 on his call now on the flop and if he thinks he can get another $6 from you, you made HIM play perfect....

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

felix,

I was trying something new here. Sometimes the most optimal play is one you havent thought of yet. I didnt like the flop line, and given it i thought it made the turn an interesting decision. Do we take hte free card with the NFD, or bet here? Sometimes we post hands not just so I can learn, but others.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Fair enough, but I also am trying to teach here as well and your line gives a lesson on how to put yourself into a tough spot.

As for whether to bet or not I really am indifferent here. And for which line to take, read my last post. I wonder how many people play it this way. I'm open to hearing different reasonings....

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Villans PSB on the flop seems like a med strength, TP-type hand, trying to price out draws.
With no real read or history, I have a very hard time getting away from your hand here for 100bb's.
Don't know about the min raise honestly, would make a 3x reraise here and plan to call a shove.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

I ain't folding no matter what happens in this hand that's for sure. You could raise right away or call and get it in on the turn. Super drawy flop + sets unlikely + only 1 2 pair hand feasible and we have solid 30% equity against it = felt

Basically I think your hand is monster in this spot and you should just be thinking about how you can best create a big pot

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

i like checking this turn behind.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
felix,

I was trying something new here. Sometimes the most optimal play is one you havent thought of yet. I didnt like the flop line, and given it i thought it made the turn an interesting decision. Do we take hte free card with the NFD, or bet here? Sometimes we post hands not just so I can learn, but others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I check just because it's so much easier to induce a river bluff from AJ/KJ or even a missed KQ/89 or something.

Shoving turn blows these hands out of the pot.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

The way I see it BB only has 60BB so is likely a fish. Villain bets full pot vs a jack high flop, a full pot bet to me looks like he may well have a marginal hand and doesn't want any action, and doesn't want the fishy BB to call with a draw, so I think he may well do this with something like 33-99 or a draw. I actually think it's quite possible that he bets less than full pot with a set here. It's a classic tell, people act strong when they are weak and act weak when they are strong.

If you raise flop make it 18-22 to price out draws.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Check behind.. finish the pot-control story.

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

Ok,

consensus appears to be we like checking behind.

River is a total blank, I believe it was the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

CO leads for 16ish, EMc value shove or just call?

Re: 50NL FTP....its been a while
 

I just call.