1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

Villain in both hands is running 58/13/2.5 over 120 hands, with a WTSD of 26% and a W$@SD of 24%.

Hand 1: I'm trying to learn to bet/fold the river. Standard?

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $200
Hero (UTG): $199
MP: $203
CO: $242.55
BTN: $200
SB: $226.60

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, 3 folds, SB calls $7, BB folds

Flop: ($18) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $15</font>, SB calls $15

Turn: ($48) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($48) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $24</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $128</font>, Hero folds


Hand 2: My main question here is about the river. What's your line? If you intend to c/shove, tell me why you prefer that to betting or vice versa.

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $197
Hero (SB): $225.70
BB: $212.20
UTG: $242.35
MP: $196.25
CO: $288.05

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, CO calls $2, BTN folds, Hero calls $1, BB checks

Flop: ($6) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, BB folds, CO calls $5

Turn: ($16) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $14</font>, CO calls $14

River: ($44) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero ...

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

1 - I bet about 36 on the river as played.. but I bet the turn as a default (fold to a raise). He'll call with any pocket pairs, especially if they have a spade.

2 - 40. No need to get tricky and c/r against a guy that may not check behind but will call a decent amount.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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1 - I bet about 36 on the river as played.. but I bet the turn as a default (fold to a raise). He'll call with any pocket pairs, especially if they have a spade.



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not a huge fan of bet/folding when you have the nut flush draw to fall back on. I think the turn check is pretty solid

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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1 - I bet about 36 on the river as played.. but I bet the turn as a default (fold to a raise). He'll call with any pocket pairs, especially if they have a spade.



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not a huge fan of bet/folding when you have the nut flush draw to fall back on. I think the turn check is pretty solid

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He can definitely have a lower one to help him along in the hand.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

HAND 1: I like the turn check. as for the river bet size, it doesn't really matter...just bet whatever u think the villain will call. against a thinking player it's sometime better to pot the river to make it look like u missed your draw and am trying to buy the pot.

HAND 2: just bet the pot. he's going to check behind too much and fold to your check raise too much even iwth a flush. because u completed from the sb so a 3 and 2 are both in your range a significant portion fo the time. but that's maybe too deep of thinking for a donk.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

1 looks very good to me. I play it the same way.

On hand 2, I'm almost inclined to overbet push sometimes here. Unless you're positive villain has a flush (in which case 40 is perfect), he is not folding a 3 and might not fold a 2 to a push.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

Hand one: I like the hand as played. A turn check is fine, since you do receive a free card if you're beat. The fold on the river looks standard here.

Hand two: The hand seems to be played fine, but I might suggest increasing the turn bet to about 18. On the river, I personally like the shove, since he won't lay down a three, or maybe a two, as CappyAA said, and you'll get that call enough to warrant the shove. You need a call less than 1/4 as much, after all...

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

When the top flop card pairs on the turn, isn't that a bad time to bluff in general because it's less likely you actually have it and they are less likely to believe you?

If so, I think we should bet this turn. As Thac said, this gets value from most PP's especially with a spade and we are charging him if he has a QsJx type hand that will not commit any chips if we check turn and river misses.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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1 - I bet about 36 on the river as played.. but I bet the turn as a default (fold to a raise). He'll call with any pocket pairs, especially if they have a spade.

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It's funny you mention that, because a few hands before this I had noticed another LAG-TAG regular had checked the turn in position for pot control on a drawy board with KK when the board paired and I thought "wow, that's a terrible check in this spot." However, in this hand I thought checking the turn was good because I have 11 outs to improve (13 if you count the two remaining kings) to a monster. I don't want to get check-raised off the hand, and I think that smaller pairs will call a river bet more often than a turn bet. On a blank river he may now c/f an unpaired spade, but I think this is made up for by the times the river completes a flush and the times he bluffs the river with a missed draw. Also, I'd hate myself for bet-folding the turn with AA vs. this particular player.

As for the river bet-size, I agree it's a little low (though with rake subtracted it's slightly more than 1/2 pot) -- against a tougher opponent I'd be worried about inducing a bluff c/r, but here Villain almost always has a weak hand and I'd like to get a call.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

I'm not worried about a bluff c/r I just think we can get more value.

As for betting the turn.. we have a draw but it's not to the nuts. I'd rather bet now and find out if I'm against 22/33 than hit the Qs on the river and have him go crazy. This, along with the fact that he's calling with random spades and a bunch of pocket pairs because we can't have trips ever makes me wanna bet the turn and make a decision on the river.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

shove the river in 2

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

#1: Fire the turn. His stats say that he is a donk. Donks always put you on AK and when the second K hit he is not taking a "check the flop, c/r the turn" line unless he has the K with KQ or something. As played, it looks like he most likely slowplayed something, but you cannot call profitably here imo. The best you can do is fire the river as played and fold to a raise.

#2: A c/r shove is too much in this spot. There's only 44 in the pot. He's not calling a c/r without a full house and he's definitely not calling a shove without one either. Bet for value on the river around 2/3 the pot and hope he is thinking you are betting for a flush and raises you so you can put him all in.. or he at least calls you with a worse hand.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

What are we looking to get value from by betting the river in hand 1? Not saying it's wrong just asking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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What are we looking to get value from by betting the river in hand 1? Not saying it's wrong just asking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


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As played, I think it's +EV to value bet the river. If he didn't slowplay, you are betting a small pot for value, in which you used pot control on the turn to keep the pot small in the first place. But if he raises you, you have to fold.

Personally, I much prefer a dbl barrel and fold to a raise on the turn with a moderate c/c on the river with a bad card. But as played, with him checking, you gotta bet imo.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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shove the river in 2

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I strongly agree with this, as in no other options. He has a flush, a boat or weak made crap. He's never folding any boat and it's going to be pretty hard for him to fold a flush even when it's plain as day you have him beat - whereas he might not bet it if checked to. And there's no more value to be made when he has a weak made hand.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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What are we looking to get value from by betting the river in hand 1? Not saying it's wrong just asking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Pocket pairs, any Qsx. This guy had a tendency to pay off on the river with losing hands.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

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I'm not worried about a bluff c/r I just think we can get more value.

As for betting the turn.. we have a draw but it's not to the nuts. I'd rather bet now and find out if I'm against 22/33 than hit the Qs on the river and have him go crazy. This, along with the fact that he's calling with random spades and a bunch of pocket pairs because we can't have trips ever makes me wanna bet the turn and make a decision on the river.

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I follow that. What I don't like is that I have decent equity vs. a naked king, but that's the most likely hand for him to check/raise an amount that I can't profitably call on the turn.

As in, if I improve on the river and he has trips I'll be able to raise and expect a call. If I don't improve on the river and he has trips I'll lose the same amount as if I checked the turn. Same thing with a boat, except I'm liable to lose more on the river if my hand improves.

Versus a flush draw betting the turn is better. Versus a smaller pair I think it's pretty evenly split, since I don't know if I get three streets out of them.

I'm not really a pot control nit or anything with my hand -- if it had been any other card that paired I'd be firing again here. I just felt like I'd be betting into trips too often and that I'd get paid sufficiently on the river.

I'm still sort of torn about this -- anything more you could add would be appreciated.

Re: 1/2: 2 hands vs. a donkey
 

But against trip kings, when there are 4 spades, he's probably not gonna pay off a river bet, unless he has the Qs or Js. There aren't many combos of KxQs or KxJs, and if one of the higher spades come.. how do we know he doesn't have a boat? I mean, if the Js comes, and he leads or check/raises.. he can have the Qs or he can have KJ or 22/33.