Live 40/80 hand
 

Borgata 40 game. Table is playing normal, maybe slightly on the tight side.

Villain in this hand is Joe (Korean guy) for those that play in these games.

Joe opens UTG, I call with 88.

Flop is K/3/4, rainbow. Ck/ck.

Turn is a 7. I bet, Joe calls.

River is another 7, what do I do? Bet/fold, ck/call, ck/fold?

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

Check/raise or check/fold. I don't know this guy, but I think QQ or the like is probably his most likely hand if he bets the river.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

What's your image? You're in the blinds I assume? If I were to play 88 here (I don't think you're necessarily of Joe's UTG range), I'd 3-bet preflop from anywhere but the big blind.

And value bet the river as played. I'd be pretty surprised if Joe raises you here (he doesn't have a 7, and he's usually fairly aggressive on the earlier streets), but if he does, I think whether to call or fold depends a lot on what he thinks of you.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

bet/fold or check call seem ok here given level of trickeness of opponnent. Opponent reads seem important here.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

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If I were to play 88 here I'd 3-bet preflop from anywhere but the big blind.

And value bet the river as played.

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I like c/c as much to induce a bluff as believing you're behind.

c/c >> b/f >> b/c >> c/f

3bet from sb? I'd fold to standard utg raiser's range. 3betting 88 oop from sb is spewy imo, unless it's against a specific player that you want to make a play against.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

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I like c/c as much to induce a bluff as believing you're behind.

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What worse hands raise UTG, call the turn, and don't have showdown value?

If he called the turn with AQ or AJ, it was probably with the hope of getting a free showdown. If he bets the river 88 is definately in bad shape.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

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3bet from sb? I'd fold to standard utg raiser's range. 3betting 88 oop from sb is spewy imo, unless it's against a specific player that you want to make a play against.

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If I'm playing 88 from the SB against an UTG raiser (and I'm second in), I'll 3-bet it almost every time. Why would you want the pot 3-handed OOP?

Maybe it's a leak, I dunno. If it is, I don't think it's much of one. And I'll fold it against a lot of UTG raisers, especially live.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

good insight, that I didn't have.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

Don't really like calling an UTG raiser who's not getting out of line much with 88 without multi-way action...

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

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Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

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Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

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Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

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I could see him paying off with AQ/66/55 if he thinks OP can get out of line. I can't imagine him raising the river ever though.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

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Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

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I played with Yong Jo for about 3 years now (not including his 1 year hiatus while propping online). He's a friend of mine so I would never share any secrets about his game just as I would never share any of yours, but seriously now, what hand would he bluff the river with? He's probably checking behind with any hand that has any type of showdown value, and not calling the turn with any hand that does not have any showdown value. I think betting the river is way better here, with check folding a good second option.

Preflop Neg EV
 

preflop i don't like the call. let's say he raises utg with aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, range may be wider, but for now let's just use those. therefore, 30 times he has a bigger pair, 32 times 2 big cards that hit the flop about 1/3 of the time. playing 88 is playing a hand with neg ev here.

postflop, in addition to aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, let add 99, kq, aj. now when the K hits you are even a bigger dog.
however, you checked and he checked. what type of good player checks heads up when he raised from early position vs a single opponent? i need to know more about this guy. if i raised with anything i lead, especially on this flop. too often your opponent folds when you bet. is he slowplaying KK? as played and without a read i would check and cal the riverl. i assume that you were in one of the blinds?

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

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preflop i don't like the call. let's say he raises utg with aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, range may be wider, but for now let's just use those. therefore, 30 times he has a bigger pair, 32 times 2 big cards that hit the flop about 1/3 of the time. playing 88 is playing a hand with neg ev here.

postflop, in addition to aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, let add 99, kq, aj. now when the K hits you are even a bigger dog.
however, you checked and he checked. what type of good player checks heads up when he raised from early position vs a single opponent? i need to know more about this guy. if i raised with anything i lead, especially on this flop. too often your opponent folds when you bet. is he slowplaying KK? as played and without a read i would check and cal the riverl. i assume that you were in one of the blinds?

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Yes slowplaying KK is possible, but not likely. Let's say you raise QQ UTG, everyone folds, and a good capable opponent is your lone caller from the big blind. Flop is K rag rag rainbow. How would you maximize this hand? How would you lose the least whlie seeing a showdown if you think your opponent is capable of trying to outplay you?

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

i think you must lead. if he "is trying to out play you", in limit this is a scary flop for him to make a move out of position.

i can't imagine not betting, qq, jj, tt, 99, aq, aj, etc. here. aggression wins too often. heads up i bet if i raised. i am not worried about losing the least, nor maximizing my return if i have QQ in a raised pot. i want to take it down now, therefore i bet, that gives me the best chance to win now or know that i am likely beat.

if utg slowplayed aa or kk he is not a good player.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

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i think you must lead. if he "is trying to out play you", in limit this is a scary flop for him to make a move out of position.

i can't imagine not betting, qq, jj, tt, 99, aq, aj, etc. here. aggression wins too often. heads up i bet if i raised. i am not worried about losing the least, nor maximizing my return if i have QQ in a raised pot. i want to take it down now, therefore i bet, that gives me the best chance to win now or know that i am likely beat.

if utg slowplayed aa or kk he is not a good player.

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How is this a scary flop for either player? I define a scary flop as a flop that has a lot of possibilities where you have a hand that can be way behind, way ahead, slightly ahead or slightly behind. Also, I'm not saying I would play any hand like this from UTG, but my image is much different from UTG's so I understand what I think he is trying to accomplish.

And I think making a generalization as you did claiming that slowplaying AA or KK here makes you a bad player is very ignorant. Poker is about maximizing wins and minimizing losses, so to say that you don't care about either is also very ignorant.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

when he calls the turn you're beat....

check/fold river.. he'll check behind some better hands also but if he calls you're toast...

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

drb,

since you want to insult me by telling me that I am ignorant, let me explain what you didn't understand. It is a scary flop, because the K completes a lot of the hands an UTG would raise with.

as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it, however, too often it is a mistake and bad poker. it is overused and causes people to miss bets.

Don't insult people here, if you disagree then be constructive.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

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drb,

since you want to insult me by telling me that I am ignorant, let me explain what you didn't understand. It is a scary flop, because the K completes a lot of the hands an UTG would raise with.

as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it, however, too often it is a mistake and bad poker. it is overused and causes people to miss bets.

Don't insult people here, if you disagree then be constructive.

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yeah you're right, I had NOOO idea that a king on the flop would complete a lot of UTG raising ranges by many players. Obviously you have no idea what I'm saying so forget it.

"as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it"

This statement is fine and I would have had no problem with it if you phrased it this way. However if you go back to what you previously wrote, you did not phrase it this way. You also said that you want to take it down right there and don't care about maximizing your win or minimizing your loss, which is very bad thinking that ultimately leads to very bad poker. Which is why I attacked your STATEMENTS as being ignorant, not you personally. So since you are so eager to give me advice on how I should conduct myself in this forum, let me give you some. Don't post things unless you are ready to defend them against people playing devil's advocate.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

Dude
I am not sharing anything that's outside of common logic. We are talking about tough and tricky player who uses his image and table reads to set up his session.
Ohh and LOL @ taking on Amulet who just might be one of the best players on this site... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude
I am not sharing anything that's outside of common logic. We are talking about tough and tricky player who uses his image and table reads to set up his session.
Ohh and LOL @ taking on Amulet who just might be one of the best players on this site... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Ok, I guess we'll talk about this some other time since like I said, I don't like talking about specific players that much here because I think it's unethical. I will say that I disagree completely with your perceived image of the villain in this hand.

As for Amulet, I'm sure that he's a great player and wins lots of money from poker. However, that doesn't change the fact that I disagree with his comments and especially the way he presented them in this particular case. Maybe I should have said something like "Dude, I always gain such great insight from your posts in the past, but this time I have to disagree with you." I'm not like that though.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

i don't necessarily think he's tricky at all...

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

"attacked" as you wrote, is a unproductive and unnecessary way to post if your try to act as a "devils advocate."

yes i wanted to take it down there. that would be the best result as i see it. i don't think this is a situation to allow free cards if utg has QQ.

i think this should end things here, let it drop unless you have a productive and friendly poker comment.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

you can and are welcome to disagree with with me anytime. we are all here to share and learn from each other. however, in a community where we all share a common interest i like keeping things friendly.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

Yes I was in the BB, which is y i called. I ended betting the river and Joe had 99, and called. After the hand, I thought that the bet on the river was pretty negative ev, he was calling with nothing that I beat and prob not folding much after I called the turn.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

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you can and are welcome to disagree with with me anytime. we are all here to share and learn from each other. however, in a community where we all share a common interest i like keeping things friendly.

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Ok, my post did sound rather unfriendly but honestly when I wrote it, I wasn't trying to be nasty or condescending.

Anyway, this hand is a tough spot. If you're checking he is definitely betting. One thing Yong Jo does better than almost anyone in that game is value betting/raising rivers. This spot is exactly why you should fold preflop especially if you don't know him that well.

Re: Preflop Neg EV
 

first of all i dont like the way joe played this hand, i think he shoulve standard c-betted the flop, chk the turn and bet the river, now for the hero in this hand, i think its very weak to just fold 88 in the BB, so thats almost never an option. I would call preflop, check call flop, if he checks behind then i bet the 7 turn and check call or in this situation check-fold the river because yong joe would never call the turn here unless he had a made hand here.(which almost always beats 88) Also joe is not the type to value bet 99 here if you bet into him on the turn and check the river.

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

I'd check-fold. I think he probably has something like Jacks and plans to make sure a bet goes in on every street. He wouldn't check behind the flop and call the turn with a hand you beat.

Jeff

Re: Live 40/80 hand
 

How about that guy in our game that hit 12 gutshots in 4 hours? I thought it was actually AMAZING. at first i was upset since obviously it's good for the game. but after the 7th one i thought i was seeing an apparition. i rubbed my palms all over him to get the lucky feeling back. Didnt work so i left. GG.