San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Subject says it all really.

Plastic bags cost grocery stores about .01-.02 cents, paper costs them .08 cents, the new bags that are replacing plastic bags cost .16 cents. So it's either the bad for the trees -paper, or the costly to the grocery store, and then the consumer, "biodegradable bags".

Insanity.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subject says it all really.

Plastic bags cost grocery stores about .01-.02 cents, paper costs them .08 cents, the new bags that are replacing plastic bags cost .16 cents. So it's either the bad for the trees -paper, or the costly to the grocery store, and then the consumer, "biodegradable bags".

Insanity.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple stores in the area offer high quality resuable cloth bags, and give a discount for using them. (.50/bag if I recall correctly?)

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

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I actually have to agree with this. The "love it or leave it" thing doesn't hold any legitimate ground with the Federal government, but with local government it's pretty different. It's really not hard to move your ass to the municipality that's right for you in this county.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

I don't think its nearly as easy to mov - be it villages, town, cities, states, or countries apart, moving is a big pain in the ass- as you gentlemen claim.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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I don't think its nearly as easy to mov - be it villages, town, cities, states, or countries apart, moving is a big pain in the ass- as you gentlemen claim.

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It's certainly a lot easier, and its not like these kinds of things change frequently. San Fran isn't going to go from what it is today to being super conservative and Bible-thumping in a year or even 10.

Most people choose to move at least once in their lives. When I bought a house, I specifically did not want to live in the city limits of Austin due to idiotic government decisions made there. Even if you work in San Fransisco, its not too hard to live in a surrounding area.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its nearly as easy to mov - be it villages, town, cities, states, or countries apart, moving is a big pain in the ass- as you gentlemen claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the complications of intra-national moving in this country are not government-created, they're just basic resource limitations (problems with the fact that you have to physically move a bunch of stuff). I changed states and so far the only legal mumbo-jumbo I've done is get a new driver's license.

Contrast this with moving to Canada.

The relative ease of moving suggests that residence is based more on choice than limited options, and gives a lot more credit to local governments.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?



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So if the majority favors a policy, the government should enact it and force it on everyone else? Isn't that in total contradiction to everything you've ever written on this site?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

[/ QUOTE ]

If people mostly supported it, people would do it anyways. Stores that provided these tree huggers with their hippie bags would have an edge over stores that didn't.

But it's a classic case of wanting something you aren't necessarily willing to pay for. Stores haven't made this decision on their own, because as much as people may mildly prefer hippie bags to dirty plastic bags, they don't prefer it enough to cover 15 cents a bag. So it's just people using government to force stores to give them what they aren't willing to pay for. As an ACist, you have no problem with that? You too hmk?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its nearly as easy to mov - be it villages, town, cities, states, or countries apart, moving is a big pain in the ass- as you gentlemen claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's really not. People make it out to be a big pain because they buy tons of crap that they don't need and need to move it, but it really isn't, and the difficulty that IS present comes entirely from decisions you've made. But even then, it just costs money to move and not a whole lot if you do it all yourself. Moving to another country, OTOH, is a serious pain, and nearly impossible if you actually want to be a citizen.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?



[/ QUOTE ]

So if the majority favors a policy, the government should enact it and force it on everyone else? Isn't that in total contradiction to everything you've ever written on this site?

[/ QUOTE ]

I care very little about what local governments are doing. I certainly don't approve of this law, but people from San Francisco need to do what's right for them and it's ultimately none of my business. If it's something that's a national trend, like smoking bans, I'm certainly going to get a bit more riled about it, but seriously anyone who doesn't expect this crap out of San Francisco just isn't paying attention, and I have no sympathy for anyone who chooses to live there.

Now if this were a federal law, it would be extremely oppressive and completely unacceptable, but local and San Francisco? Who cares?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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As an ACist, you have no problem with that? You too hmk?

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I have no problem with people in other communities living their lives how they choose. However oppressive a local community might be, the same things will happen in AC land anyway. And I certainly don't have the right to tell them how to live their lives. As long as it's decentralized to local levels, no, I really don't care a ton.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

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If people mostly supported it, people would do it anyways. Stores that provided these tree huggers with their hippie bags would have an edge over stores that didn't.

But it's a classic case of wanting something you aren't necessarily willing to pay for. Stores haven't made this decision on their own, because as much as people may mildly prefer hippie bags to dirty plastic bags, they don't prefer it enough to cover 15 cents a bag. So it's just people using government to force stores to give them what they aren't willing to pay for. As an ACist, you have no problem with that? You too hmk?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could say the same thing of HOA's and condo associations, which pretty much behave like mini-governments, except for the fact that they are so decentralized and mobility is so easy that ACists all seem to recognize the social contract with them as legitimate.

you can pigeonhole me into the "ACist" label if you want, but honestly I'm just interested in breaking up the federal government. If the states (or better yet municipalities) had sovereignty, I think that would be a huge improvement.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Are you (dangerously) posting again, HMK?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to "pigeon hole" you into anything, heh. Labels sort of suck; I am with you on that. I was just trying to be clear of what exactly your thinking was.

In principle, I certainly don't agree with the SF paper bag thing, and I despise the fact that the mentality that when you want something you're not willing to pay for you just ask for it in the voting booth is so accepted. But I agree with you that it of course isn't that big of a deal at a very decentralized level. I just don't see how the principle in any way changes (and based on your response it seems you agree).

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Now if this were a federal law, it would be extremely oppressive and completely unacceptable, but local and San Francisco? Who cares?

[/ QUOTE ]

aren't normal light bulbs being phased out, and you'll have to buy fluorescent energy efficient ones? I'm against that because
a) much more expensive
b) the fluorescent ones are slightly radioactive, so if you drop and break one you've got a big mess on your hands.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

costco doesn't even give you bags, and last time I went I only got one box, everything else was free in the cart.

fine by me, btw.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Are people seriously getting worked up by this move?
Sounds great to me; someone should force shops to help the enviroment if they don't do it by their own accord due to cost. If it has to be the local government representing the majority of the publics wants over private power then so be it.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not, it's not hurting me. It's none of my business.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not, it's not hurting me. It's none of my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with whether it's hurting me or not. It's not my government that is doing it. You realize this would happen in AC too, right?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems to me that there is a lack of empathy in your posts. I could be completly wrong but that's how it comes across to me. I don't think you can free the world if you hate the world.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems to me that there is a lack of empathy in your posts. I could be completly wrong but that's how it comes across to me. I don't think you can free the world if you hate the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems to me that there is a lack of empathy in your posts. I could be completly wrong but that's how it comes across to me. I don't think you can free the world if you hate the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!

[/ QUOTE ]

At what square footage does love it or leave it become valid? If you draw the line at anything other than ownership you're just arguing subjectivly about arbitary distinctions, which is totally fine but doesn't give your arguments a moral weight merely a practical one. You're right that the drug war is horrific and plastic bags in hippytown is meh but they're both people using force and power over others to get their way. It doesn't hurt to say they are both morally wrong though one has more impact than another. Hardly anyone changes their minds over practicality otherwise there'd be no (insert whatever nonsense people believe because they thing it's morally good and don't care about the practicalities).

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!


[/ QUOTE ]



LOL... Sorry... no possible other answer than laughing at your post!

PS I have lived, and visited SFO many times.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Liberals simply like to micro-manage other peoples' lives -- no surprise... Government says to use "brand X" bag, you use "brand X." Maybe it's easier for some people to live that way -- I don't know.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems to me that there is a lack of empathy in your posts. I could be completly wrong but that's how it comes across to me. I don't think you can free the world if you hate the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there's a lack of empathy. It's San Francisco!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who lives there knows exactly what they're getting and deserves it! I mean seriously, it's the national capitol of loony liberal laws!

[/ QUOTE ]

At what square footage does love it or leave it become valid? If you draw the line at anything other than ownership you're just arguing subjectivly about arbitary distinctions, which is totally fine but doesn't give your arguments a moral weight merely a practical one. You're right that the drug war is horrific and plastic bags in hippytown is meh but they're both people using force and power over others to get their way. It doesn't hurt to say they are both morally wrong though one has more impact than another. Hardly anyone changes their minds over practicality otherwise there'd be no (insert whatever nonsense people believe because they thing it's morally good and don't care about the practicalities).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with anything you said, and it's not relevant to what I said.

You do realize that in ACland, the people who vote for this crap would all band together and form government in local areas, right? You do realize that with the current population, if we went AC, government would immediately sprout up again everywhere, right? You seem to think there's some black and white line where there isn't.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

Where do all the plastic bags used in SF go (those not recycled)?

They go buried somewhere in SF. Where they stay for hundreds even thousands of years. Thus the true cost of plastic bags is borne out by future generations and the rest of society -- in other words, your cost analysis completely externalized the true cost of plastic bags.

Thus if SF'ans want to protect their citizens and future citizens from dealing with such external costs, there can be a legitimate case. There are thousands of cities to choose from if you disagree. And if you want to stay and persuade others to change the law, it is much easier at the local level. The knee-jerk reactions against the decisions of local govt fly in the face of real democracy. Now you may not like local-level democracy, but no better alternative currently exists. And when an anarchist alternative does emerge, I wouldn't be shocked to see local communities develop and enforce their local values. In actuality, it would be inevitable, and that is okay.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not, it's not hurting me. It's none of my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with whether it's hurting me or not. It's not my government that is doing it. You realize this would happen in AC too, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good posts Alex -- just read them after I posted.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where do all the plastic bags used in SF go (those not recycled)?

They go buried somewhere in SF. Where they stay for hundreds even thousands of years. Thus the true cost of plastic bags is borne out by future generations and the rest of society -- in other words, your cost analysis completely externalized the true cost of plastic bags.

Thus if SF'ans want to protect their citizens and future citizens from dealing with such external costs, there can be a legitimate case. There are thousands of cities to choose from if you disagree. And if you want to stay and persuade others to change the law, it is much easier at the local level. The knee-jerk reactions against the decisions of local govt fly in the face of real democracy. Now you may not like local-level democracy, but no better alternative currently exists. And when an anarchist alternative does emerge, I wouldn't be shocked to see local communities develop and enforce their local values. In actuality, it would be inevitable, and that is okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there any landfills in San Francisco? With the cost of real estate, I would be very surprised if there were. I'm sure they export their garbage somewhere else.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean people outside of San Fransisco can't have a discussion about what is done in San Fransisco, as what is done in San Fransisco might be something that is taken up in your local government. It's sort of that classic "first they came for the ____" poem. I'm pissed off that SF's government is setting this precedent.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where do all the plastic bags used in SF go (those not recycled)?

They go buried somewhere in SF. Where they stay for hundreds even thousands of years. Thus the true cost of plastic bags is borne out by future generations and the rest of society -- in other words, your cost analysis completely externalized the true cost of plastic bags.

Thus if SF'ans want to protect their citizens and future citizens from dealing with such external costs, there can be a legitimate case. There are thousands of cities to choose from if you disagree. And if you want to stay and persuade others to change the law, it is much easier at the local level. The knee-jerk reactions against the decisions of local govt fly in the face of real democracy. Now you may not like local-level democracy, but no better alternative currently exists. And when an anarchist alternative does emerge, I wouldn't be shocked to see local communities develop and enforce their local values. In actuality, it would be inevitable, and that is okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there any landfills in San Francisco? With the cost of real estate, I would be very surprised if there were. I'm sure they export their garbage somewhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I recall reading, the problem with the plastic bags was that people weren't recycling them, only about 2% were being recycled. The rest were being thrown out or just left to fly in the wind. Seems to me a recycling campaign would be better than flat out banning a commonly used item.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where do all the plastic bags used in SF go (those not recycled)?

They go buried somewhere in SF. Where they stay for hundreds even thousands of years. Thus the true cost of plastic bags is borne out by future generations and the rest of society -- in other words, your cost analysis completely externalized the true cost of plastic bags.

Thus if SF'ans want to protect their citizens and future citizens from dealing with such external costs, there can be a legitimate case. There are thousands of cities to choose from if you disagree. And if you want to stay and persuade others to change the law, it is much easier at the local level. The knee-jerk reactions against the decisions of local govt fly in the face of real democracy. Now you may not like local-level democracy, but no better alternative currently exists. And when an anarchist alternative does emerge, I wouldn't be shocked to see local communities develop and enforce their local values. In actuality, it would be inevitable, and that is okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there any landfills in San Francisco? With the cost of real estate, I would be very surprised if there were. I'm sure they export their garbage somewhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I recall reading, the problem with the plastic bags was that people weren't recycling them, only about 2% were being recycled. The rest were being thrown out or just left to fly in the wind. Seems to me a recycling campaign would be better than flat out banning a commonly used item.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple solution- put a deposit on each plastic bag. Return bag, get deposit. If they are floating around, homeless people will actually catch them. Recycling plastic probably is very wasteful since no company pays you to turn in bags (unless they are subsidized to do so).

Also, plastic bags are useful. I save them and reuse them to throw out other trash. Is this recycling?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

lol, I don't know Tom. My parents save them too, we usually have at least 20 of them under the sink, which we use to carry the stacks and stacks of newspapers my dad gets, to recycle.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

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I actually have to agree with this. The "love it or leave it" thing doesn't hold any legitimate ground with the Federal government, but with local government it's pretty different. It's really not hard to move your ass to the municipality that's right for you in this county.

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So if the majority in San Fran voted to require that every residence be installed with a working government issued video camera which transmits data to a central database, would that be okay too? Like you say, if the minority doesn't like it, they can just move.

Do I understand your position correctly?

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Local government doing things that the people living there probably mostly support, because if they didn't they certainly wouldn't choose to live in San Francisco. Who cares?

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I actually have to agree with this. The "love it or leave it" thing doesn't hold any legitimate ground with the Federal government, but with local government it's pretty different. It's really not hard to move your ass to the municipality that's right for you in this county.

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So if the majority in San Fran voted to require that every residence be installed with a working government issued video camera which transmits data to a central database, would that be okay too? Like you say, if the minority doesn't like it, they can just move.

Do I understand your position correctly?

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I don't think most ACists really *like* any of these positions, they just prefer when they are done locally to when they are done nationally.

Re: San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores
 

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Conservatives simply like to micro-manage other peoples' lives -- no surprise... Government says to use "religion X" morals, you use "religion X." Maybe it's easier for some people to live that way -- I don't know.

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Hippies don't have a monopoly on dumb legislation micro-managing your life. Does it get any more stupid than conservatives outlawing certain kinds of sex between consensual adults?

I'm glad to see a couple AC'ists break from the fundamentalist ranks and admit that in the real world this is pretty much a non-issue if you don't live in SF.