Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

Because it's hard to know where you're at. I'm not altogether happy with how I played this hand:

CAZ 20. Typical line-up. The ultimate villain in this hand is the player you want to play against, 'nuff said. There's only one fold to me in the SB holding 10-10. The suits didn't matter in the play of this hand. First thing: I think I'm supposed to raise here but it's one of my weaknesses that I often can't pull the trigger with anything less than Queens.

Flop:

9-6-5r. I bet, bunch of callers.

Turn: 3. I bet, couple of callers, villain raises, folded to me and I know he could have anything from TPTK, TP, or a set or straight but there's no way of knowing and the pot is huge. I call and the rest fold.

River: 10. He will likely bet if I check so I.........

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

I raise pre. Certain people will argue you should raise any pair pre, and I'd guess it's probably about even money to do so. TT is more than just any pair so I pop it.

Turn: [ QUOTE ]
villain raises, folded to me and I know he could have anything from TPTK, TP, or a set or straight but there's no way of knowing and the pot is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good reason to 3-bet if other players are still active (and call down UI).

River as played thusfar, yeah check-raise and crying call the 3-bet.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

go for a checkraise on the flop

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

c/r/f I call here pre-flop as well.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r/f I call here pre-flop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow based on your posts i'm really surprised you just limp in preflop. there's way too much value to not raise here

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

I can't imagine folding this river ever, even if reraised after checkraising.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r/f I call here pre-flop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, don't fold to a river three bet.

I would raise PF as well. I think there's some value in it, but even if it's close to neutral, raising is fun. Just don't bet all flops and you'll be fine.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

Raising PF is correct to do... but I'm sitting here thinking about situations where I have been in SB with 88-TT with 6-7 limpers and I think I usually do not raise, but now realize it is wrong not to.

In response to haakee's 3-bet suggestion on Turn: I'm not sure why we would want to fold out only the hands we beat (TPGKs) and risk getting 4-bet by hands we are behind. Very read dependent on the raiser I guess.

As played C/R river and I still call the 3-bet because I am a payoff wizard.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r/f I call here pre-flop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could never fold for 1 bet v. this type of villain, the spastastic, non-hand reading, non-what a c/r means type especially in a pot this big. It was my plan to c/r but when he bet he looked so pleased with himself that I just called like a meek little pussycat. Not my usual style at all. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I know there's a ton of value in raising the 10's pf and routinely not raising with them is probably a hole in my game. I just can't bring myself to do it. One thing I don't like is that when they flop as just an over-pair the board comes bunched so often that, against 7 opponents, it's likely that many of them have hit it (there being no pf raise) and rather than dodging 1 bullet I've got to dodge a hail.

Still, I think I really ought to start raising pf with those 10's so I'm going to start doing it.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
go for a checkraise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, but how many times have I seen the herd check thru? Too many times, that's how many times I've seen the herd check thru. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

raise pre, c/r flop, c/r river....

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

I agree on the raise preflop. If OP had raised preflop though, I wouldn't want to go for the check-raise on the flop. Even going for the check raise as played is iffy - most likely it will get bet, but who knows by whom? One of the most likely bettors on a fairly trashy flop could be the big blind. Do you really feel strong enough with one vulnerable overpair to trap the field for two bets? I think it would be better to lead out and hope to get raised, pricing out the overcard draws.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was my plan to c/r but when he bet he looked so pleased with himself that I just called like a meek little pussycat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was my plan to c/r but when he bet he looked so pleased with himself that I just called like a meek little pussycat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

[/ QUOTE ]

He made a read. Lay off.

--Nate

P.S. -- I like a preflop raise too. I'd checkraise the flop and checkraise this river. But I'd be more than willing to turn that into a call if I smelled something. Not that it would happen more than 5% of the time or so.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was my plan to c/r but when he bet he looked so pleased with himself that I just called like a meek little pussycat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Sh...-eyes_L-01.jpg

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

HB--

Make that image smaller if you can. Makes the thread hard to read.

Also, start raising more. And shoot me a PM if you're ever in NYC.

--Nate

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
HB--

Make that image smaller if you can. Makes the thread hard to read.

Also, start raising more. And shoot me a PM if you're ever in NYC.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll def let you know if I'm in NYC, tx! I'd like to say hi in person again and have somebody to tell me where the uh, er, unmentionable places are.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

I just bet the flop.
Your hand equity changes dramtically on the turn, Combined the table has a ton of outs if you have best hand and very few players will fold much even facing two given the huge pot and implied odds.

I probably just would of bet the river but thats b/c people view me as uber tricky and just want to see showdown cheap.
If I "knew" the person would bet I would go for the checkraise. When its a big pot like this losing 1 more bet isn't the end of the world.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

no wonder i've heard mid-high stakes players cant always beat typical low stakes.

def raise pf.
go for check-raise on flop esp since you didnt raise pf.
3-bet turn.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

Sometimes I take your line preflop and not raise... I usually try to rack it up to "varying my play"... but the truth is that I'm just a pansy and feel I need to fade EVERY over card.

However, on the turn I'm definitely 3 betting, crying if he 4 bets.

On river I lead bet if he just called my 3 bet, and check call if he 4 bet me.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
In response to haakee's 3-bet suggestion on Turn: I'm not sure why we would want to fold out only the hands we beat (TPGKs) and risk getting 4-bet by hands we are behind. Very read dependent on the raiser I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

(a) I doubt the opponent as described is going to fold any top pair here.

(b) Do you want one of the guys in the middle to (correctly) call one more bet with a hand like 76, or force him to make a tough decision for 2 more bets?

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

I never raise TT or JJ preflop in multi-way pots. Sklansky elaborates on this HPFAP.

I like raising all the suited broadway hands though(less so with KTs and ATs)

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never raise TT or JJ preflop in multi-way pots. Sklansky elaborates on this HPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without looking at the book IIRC he was referring to UTG raises in semi-loose games where a raise will cause 3 people to see the flop on average. Totally different situation. You're only a little worse than 7:1 to flop a set so with 7 opponents a raise with any pair seems like about even money, no? Therefore a raise with a group 2 pair which still likes a flop of undercards is surely +EV.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're only a little worse than 7:1 to flop a set so with 7 opponents a raise with any pair seems like about even money, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that every now and then you're going to flop an under-set if you raise with the small pairs. That's going to cost you and I think makes raising with them wrong.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Except that every now and then you're going to flop an under-set if you raise with the small pairs. That's going to cost you and I think makes raising with them wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably approximately negated by the straights you'll make with them or the times they'll win when you flop a straight draw and win the pot uncontested [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] or vs unimproved overcards.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Except that every now and then you're going to flop an under-set if you raise with the small pairs. That's going to cost you and I think makes raising with them wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably approximately negated by the straights you'll make with them or the times they'll win when you flop a straight draw and win the pot uncontested [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] or vs unimproved overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this makes the proposition of raising w/ the small pairs iffy at best. Not the worst and not the best, just so-so. I figure I'd rather not bother. I'm talking the tiny pairs here but since it's close overall I'd not argue it much.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
All of this makes the proposition of raising w/ the small pairs iffy at best. Not the worst and not the best, just so-so. I figure I'd rather not bother. I'm talking the tiny pairs here but since it's close overall I'd not argue it much.

[/ QUOTE ]

With small pairs I agree it's probably slightly -EV (although there are metagame aspects to consider), but with TT or JJ I raise here for value every time. I think it's clearly (although not necessarily hugely) profitable to do so.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're only a little worse than 7:1 to flop a set so with 7 opponents a raise with any pair seems like about even money, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that every now and then you're going to flop an under-set if you raise with the small pairs. That's going to cost you and I think makes raising with them wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Realize mathematically that this will happen less than you will flop a set vs. top top and cooler his face drawing to 4 outs in a zillion dollar pot. HE RAISED PF HOW CAN 7s UP NOT BE GOOD (762)


Sounds pretty tasty now, doesn't it?

Also, by raising this PF out of the blind you don't have to worry about "turning your hand face up" when you cap KK Multiway.

As played I CR the flop. If it's the kind of game where flops aren't bet just for the sake of it, then yeah bet.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for a checkraise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, but how many times have I seen the herd check thru? Too many times, that's how many times I've seen the herd check thru. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

65% of the time, it works every time.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
go for a checkraise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea, but how many times have I seen the herd check thru? Too many times, that's how many times I've seen the herd check thru. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

65% of the time, it works every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That made me laugh. I'm going to start using that line.

Here's the results for anyone who's curious:

Villain had turned a set of threes. I told you he was the type you wanted to play against. He might've actually 3-bet me so I def missed at least one bet. And the next day there he was in the 40 game! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

Hands I raise after 6 limpers to me in the SB:

AA-88
AKo
AKs-ATs
KQs-KTs
QJs-QTs
JTs
T9s

If opponents are stupid and easy to play against postflop and don't think enough:

77-55
98s
87s
65s

I pretty much never raise AQo here.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

How could he not 3bet.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How could he not 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he paid ANY attention at all to who is who in the game he wouldn't 3-bet but he doesn't, at least not much. I lost at least one bet for sure and maybe two but he looked so darned confident that I didn't raise. I did take a good moment to think about raising, though, and I couldn't figure out what hand he could have that I beat that didn't raise the flop. Know what I mean? If I were him and I'd flopped a set I'd be betting and raising right away. I would've raised pf w/ a high pair. The only thing he could've waited for the turn to raise was a flopped straight and even that hand should probably have raised the flop. I fully expected to be shown a straight and was frankly happy to win. Of course next time I'll c/r, get 3-bet, and he'll have me beat. That's the way the Universe works.

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hands I raise after 6 limpers to me in the SB:

AA-88
AKo
AKs-ATs
KQs-KTs
QJs-QTs
JTs
T9s

If opponents are stupid and easy to play against postflop and don't think enough:

77-55
98s
87s
65s

I pretty much never raise AQo here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet range imo.

I am inclined to raise nearly any four-straight suited connector in this spot, however. EASY 2 PLAY SIKK 2 PAY

Re: Sometimes I hate 8-way action.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hands I raise after 6 limpers to me in the SB:

AA-88
AKo
AKs-ATs
KQs-KTs
QJs-QTs
JTs
T9s

If opponents are stupid and easy to play against postflop and don't think enough:

77-55
98s
87s
65s

I pretty much never raise AQo here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why make the pot bigger preflop with more hands vs stupid people who are easy to play against??