trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Here's one that's been bothering me for a while. How's my line and does anyone fold the river? Villain is 24/11, havent seen anything unusual or memorable out of him. Seems relatively tight-passive, but just a general impression. He's i0fear for those who know him...

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $673.25
TWP: $648.30
CO: $397.35
Button: $1440.80
SB: $726
BB: $756.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) TWP is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">TWP raises to $24</font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($99, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, TWP checks, Button checks.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($99, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">TWP bets $90</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($279, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG is all-in $559.25</font>, TWP...?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

i don't think i would ever check the flop here...i know this is what you expected to hear and what you don't want to hear but still. river is tough, doesn't really make sense for him to c/c a boat on the turn and open shove the river(this of course doesn't mean he won't do it though), i would probably call.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I fold, I think people will do this all the time with a boat on the turn hoping you have a flush draw and get there. That, or he has 66/A6

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

This looks likea standard villain moron line with a boat. I would have bet flop, but check is fine sometimes. As played though, plese dont let this moron stack you.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

It's a bit odd as you would think villian would expect you to bet an ace on the river and fold anything less to his bet. There are missed draws there, but unless I'd seen villian make some odd plays I don't think I'd call.

Personally, I'm betting this flop almost 100% of the time.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Flop check is gross imho.

As played I fold the river, this is never a bluff/worse ace from a tight passive guy. Also I don't think the fact that you checked the flop affects his river push (or his play for that matter) at all, he's just playing his own hand and he seems to like it

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is gross imho.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really think you guys should broaden your thinking. There is exactly one draw possible, and the ace of trump is on the board making that draw less likely. If it hits, it will be very obvious and I'll be able to get away/play for pot control. Most people are drawing dead/to two outs against me. If I can induce one bluff on the turn here, my flop check is +EV. Not saying I'd do it every time, but it's definitely not 'gross'.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

twp,

the problem with your flop check is that your hand looks a lot like what it is if you try to get two bets here, and your hand is definitely good enough to get two bets here.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

um...you're telling me that even though no one else in the world would check with my hand here, that once i check the problem is that it telegraphs my hand?

what i find happening very often is that someone with 66 decides he has to protect his hand on the turn and makes a decent bet and then i call and then he either check/calls the river or check/folds the river but at least i got one good bet out of him that i wouldnt have gotten otherwise. or someone with QJ decides to bluff the turn. or they hit a pair on the turn and check/call two bets. or whatever.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

TWP, I think you're wrong here. Imo, the chance of someone bluffing into this multiway pot on the turn is relatively small since basically anyone could be slowplaying an ace, and on this board ppl should be aware of that. By not betting the flop, not only will u have a hard time stacking a worse ace, but you're also losing value against flushdraws. The only upside I can think of is that u might get a call from TT-ish hand on the turn, MAYBE

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

[ QUOTE ]
um...you're telling me that even though no one else in the world would check with my hand here, that once i check the problem is that it telegraphs my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. once you check and then bet big on the turn and the river you are basically telgraphing your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
what i find happening very often is that someone with 66 decides he has to protect his hand on the turn and makes a decent bet and then i call and then he either check/calls the river or check/folds the river but at least i got one good bet out of him that i wouldnt have gotten otherwise. or someone with QJ decides to bluff the turn. or they hit a pair on the turn and check/call two bets. or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

i find this never happens at all.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

hmmm....what DO you think QJ does on a Q turn? check/fold?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

What do u think A4s does on the turn? (He doesn't push)

Also, what do you think K9/TT does on a Q turn?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

check/call?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Not when u bet that big. I mean what are u supposed to have as the PFR when potting the turn after checking the flop? Even if u don't have the ace in their eyes u probably outkick their Q or have QQ or w/e. Would u pot a Q turn with 88/67s?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Would I push a range that TT does well against?

POKERSTARS GAME #8248582571: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2007/02/02 - 19:09:33 (ET)
Table 'Klet II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: antikiller1 ($75 in chips)
Seat 2: iknowallofpi ($1069.85 in chips)
Seat 3: wojo333 ($130 in chips)
Seat 4: GogUMagog ($618.60 in chips)
Seat 5: DerekJC9954 ($1170.20 in chips)
Seat 6: smugor ($1453.30 in chips)
wojo333: posts small blind $3
GogUMagog: posts big blind $6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GogUMagog [Ac Kh]
DerekJC9954: folds
smugor: folds
antikiller1: folds
iknowallofpi: raises $14.25 to $20.25
wojo333: calls $17.25
GogUMagog: raises $67.75 to $88
iknowallofpi: raises $179 to $267
wojo333: folds
GogUMagog: raises $351.60 to $618.60 and is all-in
iknowallofpi: calls $351.60
*** FLOP *** [Js Qs 9c]
*** TURN *** [Js Qs 9c] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Js Qs 9c Kc] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GogUMagog: shows [Ac Kh] (a pair of Kings)
iknowallofpi: shows [Tc Ts] (a straight, Nine to King)
iknowallofpi collected $1254.45 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1257.45 | Rake $3
Board [Js Qs 9c Kc 5c]
Seat 1: antikiller1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: iknowallofpi (button) showed [Tc Ts] and won ($1254.45) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 3: wojo333 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: GogUMagog (big blind) showed [Ac Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: DerekJC9954 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: smugor folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Or 44?

POKERSTARS GAME #8300121338: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/02/05 - 21:31:03 (ET)
Table 'Josefa II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Propheting ($128 in chips)
Seat 2: arni alo ($280.60 in chips)
Seat 4: GogUMagog ($412 in chips)
Seat 5: VaeSolis ($778.55 in chips)
arni alo: posts small blind $2
GogUMagog: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GogUMagog [Kd Ad]
VaeSolis: folds
Propheting: folds
arni alo: raises $8 to $12
GogUMagog: raises $32 to $44
arni alo: raises $56 to $100
GogUMagog: raises $312 to $412 and is all-in
arni alo: calls $180.60 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [4h 9h 2d]
*** TURN *** [4h 9h 2d] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [4h 9h 2d Td] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
arni alo: shows [4c 4s] (three of a kind, Fours)
GogUMagog: mucks hand
arni alo collected $559.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $561.20 | Rake $2
Board [4h 9h 2d Td As]
Seat 1: Propheting (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: arni alo (small blind) showed [4c 4s] and won ($559.20) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 4: GogUMagog (big blind) mucked [Kd Ad]
Seat 5: VaeSolis folded before Flop (didn't bet)

You guys seem to be thinking these guys are all 2+2ers, expecting me to be a 2+2er. The fact is, they make terrible calls. And they are more likely to make terrible calls if I check the flop than if I bet it...

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

HAHA, this site rocks! CAll! I know you did.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Hmm I thought stars was a rock garden, maybe it isn't?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Nowhere is a rock garden when i'm in the game. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Fold the river for sure

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Call! He's only laying this down if he has some major respect for the Villian. This has to be a call against these online donks.

What are thoughts on a mid PP that did'nt hit. This kind of hand could easily make this move. A boat does'nt push AI into the raiser, especailly when he knows hero has an Ace. ?????????

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I think flop check is fine as long as your turn bet is smaller (~2/3). Many people will call that bet if they catch up on the turn or have a moderate PP. I fold river, looks like a boat.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

bet flop

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

thanks J

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I don't hate the flop check as much as everybody else seems to (although my default play is still to bet here to extract from a worse A or flush draw). I'm usually not stacking off on the river here though, unless I've seen this guy bluff big or make some strange river pushes before. Or unless the villian is you, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Against a typical 24/11 with lowish aggression factor, this is nearly always a boat. He probably spiked his PP on turn or river (or flopped it) and is afraid you won't fire again on the river, but thinks you may pay off with a decent A.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

ya, i folded. i thought he might have overplayed a worse ace, but i think much more often it is a boat. still bothers me a bit, but glad to see a lot of people think the fold is correct.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

i hate to harp on it, and i might like the flop check if you were first to act, but from the position you were in in a multi way flop, especially since i'm c-betting it so much with a hand that whiffed, i'm DEF betting this flop here

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

a less obvious reason to bet this flop is that later in the hand you may face big heat from somebody who doesnt put you on an ace, and you can end up making mistakes, or at least have tough decisions. not to mention the possibility of one of them getting there on the turn.

Deception is all well and good, but when you've got 3 fish on the line and a whopper of a hand (but not a lock), you may as well start to reel them in early.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

thank you, DJ, i didn't realise the reasons for betting the flop. would anyone else care to mention that they would bet the flop? what about the [censored] river? DOES he not put me on an ace and therefore he's bluffing, or as I thought, does he want to get it in against an ace because he can beat that...?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

[ QUOTE ]
DOES he not put me on an ace and therefore he's bluffing, or as I thought, does he want to get it in against an ace because he can beat that...?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's the second one.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

tight passive guys are way too level 1 for this to be a call. good fold twp

i think there is very little river discussion because everyone agrees with your implicit/explicit reasoning here.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DOES he not put me on an ace and therefore he's bluffing, or as I thought, does he want to get it in against an ace because he can beat that...?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's the second one.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's sucha ridiculous line with a monster tho, checking again is so clearly better with a good hand. People are so dumb tho, I guess this could easily be a full house. There are lots of players that would NEVER bluff like this, and he seems likely to be in that camp, so fold it I guess.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I'm not saying it's an expert way to play a boat, just that I think we are looking at a boat much more often than a bluff here, and we arent exactly getting sexy odds on our call.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

the thing i keep thinking though, is that Paluka (a great player for those that don't read the fixed limit board) often makes a general comment which I think is very true. Don't under-represent your hand and then make tight folds. People always want to do that, they say "I must be beat!" and they fold, but they have under-represented their hand so they have caused the other person to put in more action with worse because they dont know how strong they are...

so, if i had bet the flop and he had called. and then turn he had overbet pushed, I would fold easily knowing he would never take that line into a possible ace with a worse hand. but here, where I checked the flop multi-way, I am basically saying "I DO NOT HAVE AN ACE" and then betting big on the turn may, in his mind, confirm that I don't have one. So I feel like I may have INDUCED a bluff on the river, which I then allowed to work by making a 'good' fold. Anyone have thoughts on this line of reasoning...?

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

[ QUOTE ]
the thing i keep thinking though, is that Paluka (a great player for those that don't read the fixed limit board) often makes a general comment which I think is very true. Don't under-represent your hand and then make tight folds. People always want to do that, they say "I must be beat!" and they fold, but they have under-represented their hand so they have caused the other person to put in more action with worse because they dont know how strong they are...

so, if i had bet the flop and he had called. and then turn he had overbet pushed, I would fold easily knowing he would never take that line into a possible ace with a worse hand. but here, where I checked the flop multi-way, I am basically saying "I DO NOT HAVE AN ACE" and then betting big on the turn may, in his mind, confirm that I don't have one. So I feel like I may have INDUCED a bluff on the river, which I then allowed to work by making a 'good' fold. Anyone have thoughts on this line of reasoning...?

[/ QUOTE ]

while i like this line of thinking i don't think that this hand v this player is the right application.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

This is a real easy fold

TWP i have no problem with the flop check once in a while. I do it once in a while too

I should dig up the hand history where i check big trips here here 3 ways on the button. Turn was like a J that put two flush cards on the board. he bet, i raised, call.

river bricked. check, i shove for a little more than pot. he snap calls with like 9's or T's. chat afterwards was like:

"nh. put you on a draw"

definitely some 2p2 tag too who thought "wow no way he checks behind trips on the button w. 3 in the pot. he must be raising the draw he picked up on the turn"

moral of the story is, it's funny when you take a line that everyone on the forum is like "dont do that ever" and then you stack someone for the sole reason that they just assumed you would never do that


god i need to sleep

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

first rule of fight club, dude. but yea, thanks, and i agree completely.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

Call.

Wow i think folding sucks here what are you guys putting villain on? Hero's almost never getting credit for an ace, his most likely hand is air or a really crappy pair, if villain had a real hand he'd either check it or bet small.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I wasn't going to reply. TWP I like your lines I think are they creative and mess with my handreading. The problem with the flop check is works best against someone who is thinking at 2nd level or higher and it is a 4 way pot.

I see people with those types of stats and until further indication assume they don't think at those levels. Secondly its a 4 way pot somebody is drawing live (probably more than one). Thirdly, there aren't any overcards to fall so its convienient to put you on KK or QQ when the turn hits. Fourthly, I think that its easier to stack another ace when you bet the flop. Fifthly, every line has its place but this isn't a good place. Sixthly, the river is an easy fold people don't bluff allin anymore or value bet slimly at any frequency. Seventhly--just kidding.

Re: trip aces, good kicker... meh
 

I think a call is terrible here vs that type of player, and at these limits, I think the flop check is really bad unless you are dealing with higher level thinkers (as MTBlue said) who are also moderately aggressive post-flop.

Betting the flop is the most +ev and I think a river call here is absolutely terrible.