Two Plus Two Newer Archives - 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

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- - 63s level 1 WCOOP ME (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=523607)

betgo

10-15-2007 05:11 PM

63s level 1 WCOOP ME

I will present this step by step.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t19950)
CO (t19850)
Button (t19875)
SB (t20200)
BB (t21625)
UTG (t19225)
UTG+1 (t19750)
MP1 (t20000)
MP2 (t19375)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero ???

Hattifnatt

10-15-2007 05:14 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

folds, but I guess you didnt do that.

kutuz_off

10-15-2007 05:17 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
folds, but I guess you didnt do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, please move on.

betgo

10-15-2007 05:18 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t19950)
CO (t19850)
Button (t19875)
SB (t20200)
BB (t21625)
UTG (t19225)
UTG+1 (t19750)
MP1 (t20000)
MP2 (t19375)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, CO raises to t400, 3 folds, Hero ???

kutuz_off

10-15-2007 05:20 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

Call and show us the flop. 4-betting is awful.

betgo

10-15-2007 05:23 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

KingDan

10-15-2007 05:26 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

fold pre

lead or c/c don't checkraise

kutuz_off

10-15-2007 05:28 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

I'd go for a check-call here. We are too deep for bet-3shoving and check-raising looks pretty ugly as well. We theoretically could bet-3bet to set up PSB-shove on the turn, but this is not the place and time for that. Not in WCOOP ME. Plus, if he 4bet-shoves, we're fscked, so just cc.

shaundeeb

10-15-2007 05:32 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

I like bet/calling flop.

kutuz_off

10-15-2007 06:08 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
I like bet/calling flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to increase value if you hit something, I gather? Are you willing to destack for 400BB with 6-hi flush here?

betgo

10-15-2007 07:35 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

I assume everyone likes check/calling the turn. What about the river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t19950)
CO (t19850)
Button (t19875)
SB (t20200)
BB (t21625)
UTG (t19225)
UTG+1 (t19750)
MP1 (t20000)
MP2 (t19375)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, CO raises to t400, 3 folds, Hero calls t250.

Flop: (t875) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t450, Hero calls t450.

Turn: (t1775) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t850, Hero calls t850.

River: (t3475) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ???

LearnedfromTV

10-15-2007 07:38 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

is this hand with the masters turbo?

um, fold pre bet river.

betgo

10-15-2007 08:00 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

hERESY

10-15-2007 08:15 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

he's obviously checking behind with the straight and flush possibilities, and probably folding if you bet!

why is betting the turn out of the question?

i think bet/call turn is best.

0evg0

10-15-2007 08:16 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

[/ QUOTE ]

god yr so fking bad jesus christ

JUST BECAUSE IT'S SUITED DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO MINRAISE, LIMP-RERAISE, OPEN RAISE OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF RAISE

djk123

10-15-2007 08:21 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

[/ QUOTE ]

god yr so fking bad jesus christ

JUST BECAUSE IT'S SUITED DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO MINRAISE, LIMP-RERAISE, OPEN RAISE OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF RAISE

[/ QUOTE ]

what's wrong with openeing this pre?

hERESY

10-15-2007 08:22 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]

what's wrong with openeing this pre?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing. Now what's wrong with betting the flop/turn?

KneeCo

10-15-2007 08:25 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
fold pre bet river.

[/ QUOTE ]

0evg0

10-15-2007 08:29 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

[/ QUOTE ]

god yr so fking bad jesus christ

JUST BECAUSE IT'S SUITED DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO MINRAISE, LIMP-RERAISE, OPEN RAISE OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF RAISE

[/ QUOTE ]

what's wrong with openeing this pre?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm commenting on his history of making "questionable" plays like this, not specifically this one hand. while some people can play this profitably just because it's a million bb's deep vs retards, it's obv incredibly marginal at best in the right hands. and if i had to pick 20 or more people to play deepstacked poker OOP, betgo might not actually make the cut.

capisce?

ASPoker8

10-15-2007 08:30 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

wtf why are we raising and calling a 3bet OOP with 63s?

Just because we are deep-stacked doesn't mean we have to play poorly preflop

Kala1928

10-15-2007 08:31 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

You could open-shove preflop its propably +cEV

ASPoker8

10-15-2007 08:32 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
You could open-shove preflop its propably +cEV

[/ QUOTE ]

probably

ASPoker8

10-15-2007 08:32 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

and by probably i mean wtf are you talking about?

jchauvin

10-15-2007 08:39 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

is bet 3bet with intention of either getting it in or pot size shoving any turn bad? we're not that bad vs anything but jj really and some people fold overpairs.

hERESY

10-15-2007 08:40 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

I think (hope) it's a read-dependent call PF. WTF bet flop.

LearnedfromTV

10-15-2007 08:45 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

to clarify, i'm ok w/ raising pre, although I usually wouldn't. There's a big difference between T9s-86s and 63s. At a sixmax cash table, this is definitely a fold from MP, nine-handed in a donkament it's probably more likely the CO and BN will fold. So whatever, go ahead LAG it up.

Calling the 3b oop is really bad, especially if you plan to aggressively checkcall two streets on this board. Letting 88 see the river is awful.

This is a three barrel, a b3b, a c-c, c-r turn. Anything but c-c, c-c.

betgo

10-15-2007 09:05 PM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
to clarify, i'm ok w/ raising pre, although I usually wouldn't. There's a big difference between T9s-86s and 63s. At a sixmax cash table, this is definitely a fold from MP, nine-handed in a donkament it's probably more likely the CO and BN will fold. So whatever, go ahead LAG it up.

Calling the 3b oop is really bad, especially if you plan to aggressively checkcall two streets on this board. Letting 88 see the river is awful.

This is a three barrel, a b3b, a c-c, c-r turn. Anything but c-c, c-c.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assumed you meant the intial raise, because I thought calling the reraise was automatic. Villain reraised small preflop and I was priced in. I would rather play this hand to a reraise than KJo. This is a pretty good hand to stack aces with.

betgo

10-16-2007 01:47 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

How much should I bet on the river?

Again, I can see criticizing the preflop raise, but the call of the reraise seems automatic. I don't see why I need a read for that getting 2.7-1 pot odds. I actually thought that was a good situation.

Obviously, I like to post hands involving unusual plays. I also find that playing nonstandard moves sometimes gives me flexibility and confuses my opponents.

I recognize that this may not be the most interesting hand. However, it seems that most of the people making fun of my posts don't have nearly my results.

g-p	10-16-2007 01:49 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf? werent you just hating on opening J9o on the button? the J9o hand is alot more +ev than this

betgo

10-16-2007 01:56 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with preflop with this deep money and my position. There are advantages to playing this kind of hand, and a lot of top LAGs will raise it from early position with much shallower money.

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf? werent you just hating on opening J9o on the button? the J9o hand is alot more +ev than this

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, but everyone was saying I was wrong. This is deeper money and my hand is sooted. I really prefer low suited cards to medium unsuited cards with deep money. It is easier to play, because you get more draws you can play strongly and when you just have 6-high, it is easier to throw away or bluff with. Also, it creates more deception, and makes it harder to read whether you hit the flop if you have something like that.

Here, if I raise and call a reraise, I can win a big pot if I hit trips or a straight against a big pair or AK/AQ that connects.

0evg0

10-16-2007 02:00 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
Yeh, but everyone was saying I was wrong. This is deeper money and my hand is sooted. I really prefer low suited cards to medium unsuited cards with deep money. It is easier to play, because you get more draws you can play strongly and when you just have 6-high, it is easier to throw away or bluff with. Also, it creates more deception, and makes it harder to read whether you hit the flop if you have something like that.

Here, if I raise and call a reraise, I can win a big pot if I hit trips or a straight against a big pair or AK/AQ that connects.

[/ QUOTE ]

are

you

kidding

me

The fact that you can actually beat this game for more than 99% of people is just proof that the games are still incredibly soft because you're just as dumb as you were when I started posting here 18 months ago.

LearnedfromTV

10-16-2007 02:11 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]

It is easier to play, because you get more draws you can play strongly

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t875) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t450, Hero calls t450.

Turn: (t1775) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t850, Hero calls t850.

[/ QUOTE ]

betgo

10-16-2007 02:12 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

Oh well, no one seems real interested in the river. I'll post results. I thought the hand was interesting due to preflop, but I don't think preflop is so unusual. I get a lot of flack from ABC players who get freaked out by it though.

I don't know if I played it so well postflop. Obviously, I didn't want to play for stacks with flush draw + pair, as you would with shallow money. Maybe should have be more on the river, but wasn't sure villain really had top pair or better.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t19950)
CO (t19850)
Button (t19875)
SB (t20200)
BB (t21625)
UTG (t19225)
UTG+1 (t19750)
MP1 (t20000)
MP2 (t19375)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, CO raises to t400, 3 folds, Hero calls t250.

Flop: (t875) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t450, Hero calls t450.

Turn: (t1775) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t850, Hero calls t850.

River: (t3475) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t1700, CO calls t1700.

Final Pot: t6875

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3c 6c (flush, jack high).
CO has Jh Ah (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t6875.

betgo

10-16-2007 02:15 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is easier to play, because you get more draws you can play strongly

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t875) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t450, Hero calls t450.

Turn: (t1775) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t850, Hero calls t850.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I see your point, but I it is safer to play this passively with the money so deep.

KneeCo

10-16-2007 02:23 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It is easier to play, because you get more draws you can play strongly

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (t875) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t450, Hero calls t450.

Turn: (t1775) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t850, Hero calls t850.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I see your point, but I it is safer to play this passively with the money so deep.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I was gonna make the exact post LFTV did when I was reading betgo's reply.

Betgo, in this hand you pay 8 BBs for the privilege of playing six rags OOP, then when your suited rags actually seem playable you play them in such a way that the only value they have is showdown value.

And im not even saying that the flop c/c wasn't correct, I believe it was, but I think the fact it was correct shows the prob with the hand from the get go. If it's a matter of deep stacks, bad players and the opportunity to apply pressure then it's different, but the context isn't right for that here, and the opportunity to pray for the 10th nuts OOP so I can fold if I don't hit, win a fair sized pot if I do and go broke if I'm beat is not ideal.

Adam is right, people are too quick to play as if deep poker = bad poker.

Also, fwiw, I think you can bet a little more on the river and still get paid just as often.

LearnedfromTV

10-16-2007 02:29 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the hand was interesting due to preflop, but I don't think preflop is so unusual. I get a lot of flack from ABC players who get freaked out by it though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give up.

KingDan

10-16-2007 04:08 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

betgo,

small suited cards go down in value as you get super deep. you dont insta-stack AA anymore, and you arent happy getting 400bb in with a 6 high flush usually

postflop isnt that interesting cause can you take a bunch of different lines and as long as you dont do anything too stupid you'll be fine

g-p	10-16-2007 04:12 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

"small suited cards go down in value as you get super deep"

only when you are out of position, which is the case here.

but with that said i think preflop is fine, just betgo has some ideas mixed up. calling that smallll reraise isn't a mistake if you are good postflop.

WarDekar

10-16-2007 04:18 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the hand was interesting due to preflop, but I don't think preflop is so unusual. I get a lot of flack from ABC players who get freaked out by it though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you played this hand extremely poorly. If you're going to play a hand like this I think you have to be willing to play a bigger pot when you flop this huge, what are you trailing? No one can have a pair + flush draw, plus I mean on the turn you picked up a gut-shot as well. That means that no matter what you're up against you always have outs, or are already ahead.

I'm all for playing hands passively when they already have show-down value and are marginal. I tend to play my hands that are either strong and made or medium and drawing faster because a.) it helps with deception and b.) it adds fold equity with my marginal and drawing hands which is the huge advantage of playing those hands to begin with - building pots and taking them with FE.

We talk all the time about polarizing ranges on reads of villains, well the reason that happens is what I touched on, and is a huge foundation of how winning players play. Of course, you have to mix it up beyond that, but what you've done here is just a butchering.

By the river, you've made it such a standard donk check/call line with a flush draw that there's no way he's paying off a good sized bet, so you have to donk value-bet it and end up making nothing on the hand.

I take check/call lines all the freaking time now, but I don't think I like it in this spot, when I have a hand like this that is decent now but can become much better I prefer to try and start getting chips in somehow and use my FE, because what the hey if we get it in, I'm flipping vs. any reasonable range.

KingDan

10-16-2007 04:21 AM

Re: 63s level 1 WCOOP ME

[ QUOTE ]
"small suited cards go down in value as you get super deep"

only when you are out of position, which is the case here.

but with that said i think preflop is fine, just betgo has some ideas mixed up. calling that smallll reraise isn't a mistake if you are good postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea good catch, position is huge.
i agree pf isnt that huge, but the implied odds aren't nearly as big i think betgo seems to think

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