Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Tried searching, but it gave nothing. I know very little about LHE, so this is a quite basic question about the game.

Today I played 5/10 against a loose aggressive semi-retard. In hold em he raised almost every hand preflop when it was folded to him (no matter the position), and he called raises all the time. He also did plays like 3-betting 36o and then betting all the way. He had 1000 bets at the table, so he was probably just playing around. Obviously I pegged him as a bad player that will probably give me profits.

What I wonder is if a loose style can win money in the long run in limit hold em. I don't think I've ever seen it, but this is rumored to be true in NLHE. What is the case in limit?

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

as you describe, no.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Agreeing with One Outer (sorry man)... as described, this is heehaw poker. But it IS possible to loosen up a little PF, especially if you can see more flops cheaply, and play better than the opponent after the flop. But playing and raising 63o is not a recipe for success.

The important thing is to loosen up to a degree you feel comfortable, and not get sucked into playing crazy just because it seems to be getting the money at the moment.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

nope. eventually they bleed dry. they may run hot for a bit and look good, but a hot streak can make alot of crappy players think they're good.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Generally no, however, remember, in the land of retards, the semi-retard is king, so I suppose we could find a table somwehere where it would be profitable.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

I have seen people play like this and run over a table of very passive players for a while. They scare the passive players out of pots until they figure out that the maniac is raising with air. Then they start calling him down with almost anything.

I have seen a several players that play like this for a couple of cycles. Once they get caught a few times raising with air, they slow down a lot. I’m sure their thinking is that they will get more action on their good hands after playing like a maniac for a few cycles. If they can sit down at the table and run hot for the first few cycles, I suppose this can be profitable, but when you sit down and run cold, you will lose a lot of money.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

As mikeca says, this "maniac" strategy can work.
It is written up in HAP, I believe.

I saw this a couple of weeks ago in B&M 3/6 game.
This guy would bet 50% of his hands all the way
down. At the river he would be heads up. But if
he wins 1/3 of the hands he will be good. I
called him down once and beat him with A-high.
I left the table because I did not have position
on him. I described his strategy to the guy
sitting next to me and he said "I just play my
cards". You can see why the maniac had a big
chip stack.

The best way to play these guys is to sit to their
left, wait for cards and re-raise. HAP calls this
"isolate and punish". Once you are onto him he
won't last long.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agreeing with One Outer (sorry man)... as described, this is heehaw poker. But it IS possible to loosen up a little PF, especially if you can see more flops cheaply, and play better than the opponent after the flop. But playing and raising 63o is not a recipe for success.

The important thing is to loosen up to a degree you feel comfortable, and not get sucked into playing crazy just because it seems to be getting the money at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you considering trying that? I foresee lots of sighing...

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

I'm actually not overly tight PF.. (ie: limping with Kxs, Qxs, 64s, 97o, etc...). I like to see more flops than the average rock, and play tight (and hopefully not too weakly) from then on.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He also did plays like 3-betting 36o and then betting all the way.

[/ QUOTE ]


This guy is the MAN! 63o is the almighty DEVASTATOR... ask me about my blog....hehe

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Further, a table can bring a maniac to his knees in a hurry if they:

1) fold PF everything except premium hands, and
2) mercilessly raise super-premiums.

Maniac wins no big pots, no cheap pots and is essentially playing 1 on 8 poker. He can't last. Table does not need to be overt about it. But if they play as a tight unit against the maniac he is quickly toast.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

If you do want to loosen it up a bit, use position. Loosen up ONLY from HJ or later. If facing a true maniac, be patient and tighten up. Then RAISE when you have the goods.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Yes, they can be very short term winners. Their style is a pendulum though. They can lose chips just as fast as they accumulate them. Example: I played 4/8 live today and a girl to my left played just about every single hand for 3 hours straight and occcasionally hit some really nice pots. She also bet out at a lot of flops. She started with a rack($100) and built it up to $450, left with like $150 total. So although she did win a little, think how she could have done if she played just a bit smarter post flop.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nope. eventually they bleed dry. they may run hot for a bit and look good, but a hot streak can make alot of crappy players think they're good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I resemble that remark.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

I obviously understand that they can win in the short term, any strategy can. But I'm wondering if there are long time winners playing loose

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Just for giggles..
Would you expand on how you would loosen up a bit (alla SSHE) in these situations (playing with Maniac, being a maniac).

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

There are a *handful* of long term winners that are very intelligent LAGs. But they aren't that far out of line. The looseness you're describing, no.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

Well, there is a big difference between loosening up generally at a typical table and playing at a table with a maniac. I think the best strategy against a maniac is to tighten up PF and make them pay. To use a boxing analogy, if the table is typical you want to jab more often (play more hands) and if the table has a maniac or two you want to play the rope-a-dope for a while and go for the knockout when an opening presents itself.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

This is exactly right. I have been at tables where the maniac manages to hypnotize two or three loose passives/callingstations into going berzerk..and then shortly thereafter the maniac has those players going to the ATM.

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I obviously understand that they can win in the short term, any strategy can. But I'm wondering if there are long time winners playing loose

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on how you define "loose". As stated repeatedly above, the player you described will not be a long term winner using that style of play exclusively. However, if he changes up & all of a sudden adopts a rock-like style of play the next time you sit at a table against him, he's probably going to make a good amount of money off of you before you recognize the change & adapt your play correspondingly.

The best LHE players in the world play quite a bit looser than you or I normally would, at least on average. They can do this because they are much, much better than we are at postflop play, and they must do this because their opponents are nowhere near as bad as our typical opponents are. Put another way, you will not be a long-term winner in high stakes games playing a simple, ABC style of TAG poker; you have to loosen up and vary your play enough that your opponents won't be able to put you on a narrow range of hands & play perfect poker against you.

Varying your play is the key. I've seen Phil Ivey make many of the same plays you describe your maniac making in high stakes LHE games online (in fairness, these are very short-handed games). However, a player like Ivey is both skilled and competent enough to change up his playing style when he recognizes that his opponents are adjusting to it. So in one hand he might be capping (with position) holding 74 offsuit, but the next time he does that he very well may have the goods (or he may not; that's the central point).

Doing anything on a constant basis will lay the foundations for a losing LHE player, at least once you get up to fair-sized stakes and/or against decent opponents. Really, the only steadfast rule that there is in LHE is to always raise when closing the action on the river & holding the nuts--other than that, there will always be exceptions to any "standard" play.

All that said, don't try to play like that maniac (or like Ivey) just yet. As you gain experience, and after much trial and error, you'll start to recognize the cases where you should make a seemingly bizarre play or three. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

To a point as long as you read hands extremely well (almost to the point of seeing everyone's hole cards)

Re: Can players with very loose preflop selection be winners?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Generally no, however, remember, in the land of retards, the semi-retard is king, so I suppose we could find a table somwehere where it would be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that table exists in live games.