Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Villian just sat down. No read. Was content to let a free turn card peal off and maybe go for a c/r. I still stack any set as well as some other weaker two pair hands as well as a bluff sometimes. Was playing HU when villian sat, he saw me playing agro until i stack first guy. Villian sits in and I raise every hand until this one (only like 5 hands). Likes/Dislikes???


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($63.55)
Hero ($123.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Button calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($6) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $6.

Turn: ($26) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I'd just lead. You've raised out of the blinds, and regardless of what your range is, readless people *always* put you on aces when you raise OOP. If he has two pair he would betfold, well you lost a little value but not much. If he has a set that he's adamant is still good, well he's seeing a river and with stack sizes as they are will probably go all-in. Also bear in mind that there are now billions of wraps out there, and you have no reasonable idea what he has.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Very nice smooth call on his flop reraise. However, if its me, I'm going to lead the turn for another $4 and hope this induces a rr. My reasoning is that sometimes I'll reraise a flop bet from the button if I have a wrap here so I can get guy OOP to check turn to me. This move allows me to check behind on turn and get to the river on the cheap. If you lead for a very minimal turn bet I think villian pops you here like 85% of the time and you can get it AI. We just want to ensure that Villian does not check behind on turn. All in all, I really like your flop play here.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I do not like your flop play for the obvious reason that you allow your opponent to draw to whatever relatively cheap. Make them define their hand right now and possibly get it all in right now. I have had plenty of set vs. set battles get it all in on the flop.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I'd just lead the turn as played. 3/4 pot is good for value and can make him think you're block betting with AQ.

I'd also just pot the flop instead of that sissy bet. but I'd also pot there as thin as AKxx.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I think a bet / 3 bet gets more value. As played, I expect villain to bet and fold twopairish type hands / some wraps to your CR. After raising pre and calling his flopraise on that board, then CRAI turn, you are obviously showing tremendous stregth and I think most monkeys could read this for AA.

By leading turn, he will either:

1. call -- builds a bigger pot for you with the nuts
2. raise -- perfect, let's get it in now with the nuts now that he's committed himself
3. fold -- if he's folding here then he was bluffraising flop and was going to shut down on turn most times anyway

I think bet &gt; check turn. I like the flop though.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

i dont play much HU but i like your line. my usual play here is lead flop for 2/3 pot, c/r turn and this pretty much gets all the money in while you are still good in the hand, rather than leading the turn, still having plenty back and then being put to the test on the river when any number of scare cards drops

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

out of position i think you shouhld try and get the money in on the flop. If he raised you on the flop OOP then i would just call and let him lead into you on the turn (where i'd shove, unless the board was super dry)

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Min-bet the turn to induce a pot sized raise.


Poker is EZ.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I raise this flop every time, and do it with a variety of semibluff hands as well. 234678 are all scare cards, this really isn't a 'dry' flop. Especially heads up you should be willing to push a wide range here, and he'll probably call pretty often with top and bottom.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

As cmyr said, this really isn't dry. I'd likely donk this flop and c/c any scare card on the river. That being said, I'll c/r this turn occasionally if I think my opponent is a little overaggressive. It's just your standard stack-a-donk line from NLHE because he is short enough that you can get effectively all-in on the turn.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

234 is not scaring cards at all
i like check there because he would probably bet with anything if he isnt so nitty [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i always pot turn with such Hero betting patterns when i am villian and this is my biggest mistake ever [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

you are heads up...fast play this, you are screwed if a 234678 comes on the turn it shuts down action even if he were to have middle set in addition you cant play out the rest of the hand with any confidence if those cards do hit, you arent committed enough to try and fill up.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I think. Most of you are wrong. Would love to get into discussion on this hand. I actually like my line, if others don't, would like to hear why not; am open to suggestions.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think. Most of you are wrong. Would love to get into discussion on this hand. I actually like my line, if others don't, would like to hear why not; am open to suggestions.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol wtf???

You got a bunch of responses to the hand, and then you come say this?

how about you tell us why you think we're all wrong, and why you like your line. We just told you why we think otherwise.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think. Most of you are wrong. Would love to get into discussion on this hand. I actually like my line, if others don't, would like to hear why not; am open to suggestions.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol what

aren't the ~10 posts before this discussion about your line?

fwiw, i think just calling the flop raise is fine some of the time.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

If the issue is what is the easiest line to extract maximum value, the answer is simple: bet same fraction of the pot on the turn and river such that he's all-in if he calls you down. Here that's 60% or about $16 on the turn and $34 on the river.

However, this line gives him barely enough implied pot odds to call the turn if he has the maximum 9 outs (he's getting 4.75 to 1 and he needs 3.6 to 1). If you want to deny him these odds, you have to bet $21 or more.

The last key advantage of betting out any significant amount (1/2 pot or more) is that it's always +EV no matter what he has or what the river brings.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think. Most of you are wrong. Would love to get into discussion on this hand. I actually like my line, if others don't, would like to hear why not; am open to suggestions.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol what

aren't the ~10 posts before this discussion about your line?

fwiw, i think just calling the flop raise is fine some of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line works best if you're fairly certain villain has either a set or nothing, but there's no way we can know that based on such a limited history.

The main problem is that almost every single turn is a scare card for top 2 pair which may well be willing to stack off only on the flop.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the issue is what is the easiest line to extract maximum value, the answer is simple: bet same fraction of the pot on the turn and river such that he's all-in if he calls you down. Here that's 60% or about $16 on the turn and $34 on the river.

However, this line gives him barely enough implied pot odds to call the turn if he has the maximum 9 outs (he's getting 4.75 to 1 and he needs 3.6 to 1). If you want to deny him these odds, you have to bet $21 or more.

The last key advantage of betting out any significant amount (1/2 pot or more) is that it's always +EV no matter what he has or what the river brings.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats very sure if we assume he will check the turn
but thats poker and u r playing not against robot) that call and check looks VEERY weak
i'd bet that for 60%sure with any cards as villian
and 85% with any draw\2p
if i hvnt reads, indeed

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

I don't think any of the scare cards will even be that scary to our opponent here. Villain raises the flop, hero only calls and checks the turn, hero as been all aggro, villain has a shortish stack. The straight draws on this board just aren't that scary especially to players who aren't very good. I think he'll bet a lot of the time when we check to him on the turn.

If there are a flush draw on the flop or scarier str8 draws (like AT9) then I definitely would not like just calling the flop raise. Like I said, I think it's good to do some of the time, and the rest of the time I'd just 3bet the flop. I do think it would be good for sc00t to just continue hammering on this guy and keep up his aggro image.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think. Most of you are wrong. Would love to get into discussion on this hand. I actually like my line, if others don't, would like to hear why not; am open to suggestions .

[/ QUOTE ]

you obviously arent open to suggestions, you basically wanted us to say that your smooth call is AWESOME, which in fact it isnt the only way to play the hand

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

It is very very unlikely he has a draw. He made slightly over a minraise on the flop so his most likely hand is A5/A9 but he may have a set. The problem with checking this turn is that when he does have A9 or A5 that queen is going to be a scary card and he may fold to your c/r while he probably would have called if you led. The only way your line is better than anything else is if he is on a stone bluff. Lead the turn or start playing so it isn't obvious you have AA if you 3bet the flop.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Sorry about the last post. Was in a pissy mood after a live game last night. Found a good 2/5 game around town that deals PLO and I forgot I'm a full ring fish. Blah.

I didn't expect people to say that this line is AWESOME, but I am quite suprised that most haven't like it. Which is fine.

A few people IM'd me and have said they liked it, and I posted the hand on CR forum as well and the one response was "standard".


The purpose of this line is to get as much money in as possible from a wide range. Yes I could just 3bet the flop and stack 555 or 999, OR I could smooth call and c/r the turn and do the same thing. But when I call the flop and check the turn, I get a wider range of hands that will fire on the turn then will stack off to a flop 3bet. Not to mention I look semi weak and I will attract semi bluffs or weak two pairs looking to just move me off on the turn, and in the event the villian has AQxx or had aces up one the flop I think I get a ton of his stack in without even having to bet it myself. Stack sizes were another reason why I liked this line. If he bets the turn 2/3 psb or more, he'll be committed with a wide range of hands. If i 3bet the flop or lead the turn he can still fold, or call the turn lead and fold rivers.

I actually think the donk lead turn line is the worst route to take here. It kills alot of the action I can get from not 3betting the flop. Aces up on the flop or 59xx or 678x now just call and see a river rather than bet hard after I check. If the stacks were 200bb or more then this line would be more attractive to me, simply for the fact that it would be hard to put me on top set. Putting out a fake weak blocking turn bet with hopes of it getting raised would be a great line against an aggressive opponent.

3betting the flop lightly is usually my standard line. But on such a dry board and only 60bb effective stacks, it sorta makes the flop 3bet the deciding point in the hand. And I think the opponent can get away from 2pair or some pair+draw type hand as well. Also it eliminates any value I could get from bluffs. Yes, bluffs. Hands with little or now showdown value almost have to bet the turn after slowing me down on the flop. If i 3bet I only get a narrow range of hands coming along, and its the same range that bet the turn after I check. I do agree with piiop tho, 3betting would keep up the aggro image and would make it harder for the opponent to gain a solid read on my play. The villian isn't a reg though, so wasn't too worried about him picking up anything on my betting patterns.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Preflop-good
Turn-fine assuming villian will be most of the time and is not raising for a free card. If villian bets turn, I check raise and hope to get it in.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

Playing LAGy and then slowing down to induce bluffs when you have the nuts doesn't sound like good poker to me. Getting him to call you down for his whole stack when drawing next to dead is supposed to be your payoff.

Re: Top set on dry board. Getting max value.
 

PokerStars Game #11147662307: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/07/26 - 15:46:29 (ET)
Table 'Edburga V' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 6: jazz100 ($63.55 in chips)
Seat 8: sco0ot ($123.70 in chips)
jazz100: posts small blind $0.50
sco0ot: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sco0ot [Qs Ah Ac Ks]
jazz100: calls $0.50
sco0ot: raises $2 to $3
jazz100: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Ad 5s 9h]
sco0ot: bets $4
jazz100: raises $6 to $10
sco0ot: calls $6
*** TURN *** [Ad 5s 9h] [Qc]
sco0ot: checks
jazz100: bets $24
sco0ot: raises $73 to $97
jazz100: calls $26.55 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ad 5s 9h Qc] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sco0ot: shows [Qs Ah Ac Ks] (three of a kind, Aces)
jazz100: mucks hand
sco0ot collected $126.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $127.10 | Rake $1
Board [Ad 5s 9h Qc Jd]
Seat 6: jazz100 (button) (small blind) mucked [5h 2s 3h 5d]
Seat 8: sco0ot (big blind) showed [Qs Ah Ac Ks] and won ($126.10) with three of a kind, Aces



Turns out he had bottom set. In this case, if I took any of the 3 lines discussed, Im sure I would have stacked him. The point of the post wasn't how to stack a set (because imo any line will), the point was how to get max value from the widest range of hands. I think this line does that, I know some don't; but its good to discuss why we think that etc. Anyways, thanks for the posts.