Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

28 left. Current payout is $1.2k and winner gets $48k. I built a big stack approaching the ITM bubble and have been 2-5 ever since but lately have been totally card dead and have fallen to about 20/28. I have been playing very tight for about 5 orbits, but was pretty aggro before that. Villain probably thinks I am tight.

Villain plays loose and pokerdb stats are meh. He had a big stack and recently lost half of it. I thought he would tilt off the rest, but has played tight for two orbits or so. Definitely capable of making loose, big moves. Kind of wreckless.

Assume we have a significant ability edge on most of the field. There is one very good player at our table and one pretty good, and the rest are unknown or average at best. Keep in mind the levels are 20 minutes, antes are small, and structure is pretty slow (there are extra levels).

Level XV (1000/2000)
9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: AceSpades11 (59038 in chips)
Seat 2: vovo_leo (106504 in chips)
Seat 3: Gava (38749 in chips)
Seat 4: plattsburgh (45214 in chips)
Seat 5: bigdogpckt5s (89913 in chips)
Seat 7: uclabruinz (48142 in chips)
Seat 8: hasminejerry (59643 in chips)
Seat 9: PFINO (44401 in chips)
uclabruinz: posts small blind 1000
hasminejerry: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to uclabruinz [Kd Jd]
folds to us in SB

Give me your move and your plan. Discuss variables you are taking into account in your decision.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

Looks like this is going to be an interestin hand.

So, my default play here is to raise to 2.5x-3x BB, whatever has been my normal raise. I'm raising more for value than for a steal here, and really don't hate getting called.

Factors:
Villain seems to be tightening up on a smaller stack, so maybe he's smart enough to know he should be tighter now, and is more likely to fold now that he doesn't have the chips to afford to take some more gambles.

Obviously he could resteal here, and I think we're folding to a push, so a smaller raise is probably more my line because I want to minimize my risk. But our stack size leaves us pretty exploitable to a resteal.

Being OOP if called is a concern, but, "worst case" even if we make it 5k preflop, get called, cbet ~7k more on the flop, and end up having to fold to a raise, we still have almost 20 BB's left, which isn't that bad and gives us plenty of room to recover.

I hate open-limping against a guy who has tightened up, so I can't make an argument for that, and folding is obviously out the window.

So I'm making my standard raise here, a bit on the smaller side, probably right around 5k. I am probably folding to anything bigger than a minraise, if he minraises I am probably about 80/20 call/3bet.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I highlighted interesting points in bold.

MrTimCaum: i'm usually raising
MrTimCaum: 7k
MrTimCaum: sometimes i'll limp/call or limp/rr
MrTimCaum: never limp fold though
KramerTM: so when you limp/call.. youre playing it conservaitely, where youll fold the flop 65% of the time, and CR all-in when you connect?
MrTimCaum: i dont think i'm crai 100% of the time when i hit
MrTimCaum: sometimes i'll just check call and push a safe turn or crai then
KramerTM: ah
MrTimCaum: yeah sometimes i'll bet/call and push turn or bet/3bet all in
MrTimCaum: i vary my play A LOT in blind vs blind play
MrTimCaum: i pretty much keep every line as an option
KramerTM: ok.. next part of the question
KramerTM: you raise to 8K, and he INSTA-shoves
MrTimCaum: yeesh
MrTimCaum: is this a money bubble at 28?
KramerTM: nope.. the money bubble was at 30
KramerTM: next one at 18
MrTimCaum: i dunno
MrTimCaum: if i feel he's tilty from losing a bunch of chips i'll probably call but be sick about it
MrTimCaum: i think it'd be a huge mistake to raise and then fold to a jam
MrTimCaum: if you're going to raise/fold then just limp/call or limp/rr
KramerTM: right, i agree
KramerTM: especially if you know hes a LAG
MrTimCaum: or just raise smaller
KramerTM: thats a good point
MrTimCaum: because if you're going to raise fold, what's the difference between raising 6k and 8k?
KramerTM: if anything, he might jam more often to the bigger PF raise

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

This seems like a standard raise and c-bet most flops.

Your Q is low but your against only a slightly larger stack and your M is still ok. His lower middle stack size is the right size to attack since I find the middle stacks the most obligated to play their hands.

What is the next price break and for how much? Middle stacks are sometimes even more handcuffed by any bubbles.

Because of this fact I would fold to a reraise inspite of the fact that he was making moves with a larger stack before. He seems to have shifted gears when he was cut in half. If he made the reraise with a big stack, I would push.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I was sweating the last few orbits and had the same read.

Against a lot of bb players, I would raise this hand. The reason I would complete here is that I think he is going to shove over our raise with a wide range that includes a lot of worse hands. Since I hate raise/folding for 20% of our stack and I don't want to call a shove and get 25bbs in preflop, I'd rather limp and call a raise of up to 4x from villian with a plan to felt any pair or decent draw. Because villian is so aggro, if we flop a pair I think we can get him to bluff of a lot of chips post flop.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]

The reason I would complete here is that I think he is going to shove over our raise with a wide range that includes a lot of worse hands. Since I hate raise/folding for 20% of our stack and I don't want to call a shove and get 25bbs in preflop, I'd rather limp and call a raise of up to 4x from villian with a plan to felt any pair or decent draw. Because villian is so aggro, if we flop a pair I think we can get him to bluff of a lot of chips post flop.

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I'd probably limp call, in a vacuum, more than most here anyway.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

From description of Villian being reckless, I would just complete here. If villian makes a standard raise I would be willing to call and see a flop with the intention of check folding if I miss or check raising if I hit.

I don't like raising in this spot to aggro BB. I hate calling off my stack when you can be behind or dominated by a lot of hands like a,x any pair etc.

Maybe I'm just weak tight from busting out late in 3 or 4 tourney's recently by overvaluing my cards in blind battles??? Once in a while the BB can have a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I like Seke's line here. I'd also add that raising into an agrro like Villian represents a strong hand and, if like you've said, he's changed gears, you have a good chance of picking up his BB. In any event, you hold a strong HU hand.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I don't mind those going for limp/rr either. I guess I'm putting more stress on the Villain's adjustment in style to tighter once he lost chips as opposed to the fact that he was playing aggressively earlier when he did have chips. So I'm reading him as playing closer to TAG than LAG at the moment.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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I'm reading him as playing closer to TAG than LAG at the moment.

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Specifically for this reason, I don't like the limp. He has a random BB hand and I'd like to see where I stand.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

He still was not a TAG. It was more like, chips were flying on this table and he probably was card dead. My read on him is that he is likely to be aggressive in this blinds battle both pre and post-flop.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

Does anyone agree with me that limp/folding is terrible?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone agree with me that limp/folding is terrible?

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Yeh I agree with this and grayx's reasons for limping. I think raising puts a massive target out there for an aggro player to resteal and I really hate calling off this many chips with KJ considering how relatively deep we are. I much prefer the limp reraise all in to the raise/reraise/call option too.

If Villian raises to 6000, I think I flat call and imagine that he will bluff alot of chips away when we hit. If he raises to 8000, then I think the reraise all in becomes a viable option.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone agree with me that limp/folding is terrible?

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I would fold if he shoved. I wouldn't fold to a normal sized raise though, I'd probably call but I don't hate the limp reraise either.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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The best approach, I think. But UCLA brings up a good point in regards to V's blind play. It's an issue that hasn't been addressed.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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What sort of flops are we not shoving?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Does anyone agree with me that limp/folding is terrible?

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I would fold if he shoved. I wouldn't fold to a normal sized raise though, I'd probably call but I don't hate the limp reraise either.

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My thoughts again.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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With this villian and these stacks, the only raise he's going to make is going to be a shove. That is unless he tries to get tricky with a monster. I don't see him just reraising to 15-20k with a marginal hand as a resteal.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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[ QUOTE ]
raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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The best approach, I think.

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I really really hate this. This is why people get stacked in the blinds because they suddenly get reckless and pay no attention to ranges and the fact that the BB might have a hand once. This plan seems to have no logic IMO. I can't even articulate very well why I hate this but I do.

Is it just me?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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What sort of flops are we not shoving?

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Why are we shoving anyway? If we raise to 5k and he calls, it's like a 10k pot and we have 40k behind, why the hell are we shoving?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

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What sort of flops are we not shoving?

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Why are we shoving anyway? If we raise to 5k and he calls, it's like a 10k pot and we have 40k behind, why the hell are we shoving?

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[ QUOTE ]
raise to 5k, call a reasonable reraise and shove majority of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

Oh, sorry, I'm blind today. Uhm...yeah, that works.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, sorry, I'm blind today. Uhm...yeah, that works.

[/ QUOTE ]

A player with this image has a lot more FE with me by making it 15-20k than he does shoving as I think his range is much smaller. I think you guys are all walking into a trap if a player with this image only makes it 15-20k instead of shoving on us in a blind battle. IMO his range would be all big pairs or maybe AK and he's not folding those (correctly) to a 1/2 psb on the flop by us.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

effective stacks are 48k

i'm supposed to believe the action goes raise to 5k, he reraises for 43k more?

i dont know how "good" villain is, meaning whether or not he'd understand that raising to like 15-20k is pretty horrible unless he's calling a 4bet shove from paul, but im not really willing to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

also, paul's addressed that he is very agressive, but is going to be calling this improvised stop n go with AT on a Q47 flop? that's very different from raising half the hands and being maniacally agressive

i think you're overestimating his agressiveness if you're limping with KJs here. i mean, 50% of the time he's going to have something worse than J9. now suddenly you're playing OOP with a hand that had value against half the hands in the deck with no information except he doesnt have an ace or a pair.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I want to pose some scenarios:

1. You raise to 8k and he shoves.

2. You raise to 6k and he shoves.

3. You raise to 5k and he calls. Flop comes AQd5r.

4. You limp and he raises to 8k.

5. You limp and he shoves.

6. You limp and he checks and flop comes AQd5r.

Thoughts on any, all of these scenarios?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to pose some scenarios:

1. You raise to 8k and he shoves.


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I think this is pretty close with the pot odds of 1.4-1, but I think you are ok making this call against his range (any pair, any ace, KT+, QT+, JT+ and some suited connectors.

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2. You raise to 6k and he shoves.


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Pot odds are only slightly worse like 1.35-1. In the actual hand, villian instantly shoved, he didn't give any consideration to the size of your raise. He had already planned to shove whatever he had to any raise. I think this weights down the monster hands like AA-TT because most people would want to think about how to play these hands.

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3. You raise to 5k and he calls. Flop comes AQd5r.


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Given that he didn't shove, I don't think he has an ace here. I think I make a standard continuation bet.

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4. You limp and he raises to 8k.


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Probably call, sometimes shove, never fold.

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5. You limp and he shoves.


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Fold

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6. You limp and he checks and flop comes AQd5r.


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I think I might go for a check/raise here. He is pretty aggro so he will probably try to steal it, but I don't put him on an ace.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
effective stacks are 48k

i'm supposed to believe the action goes raise to 5k, he reraises for 43k more?


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Why is that hard to believe? A reraise to 20k is 40% of ucla's stack.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

read the rest of my post i made more sense of it

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

For me, pre-flop is about who gets the equity of the stack committing bet with their above average hand.

If you raise, you take can take down a small pot at the risk of being put to a decision for your stack but the order of play and stack and pot size means that is more likely that villain will have the chance to make a committing bet that is not an overbet.

If you limp, then either by reraising pre or leading post, you are the one more often posing that question.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

First Off, I have played Sit N Gos with the villain, and will gladly confirm hes a loose nutcase, without much regard for chips / money.. does that change late in a 300, might, but I will go ahead with the maniac aggressive label for him.

When playing a crazy aggressive player, most of them would view a standard raise by SB here as a steal i think, and would push over top with Any Ace, Any pair, maybe K10 - KQ. The maniac isnt looking to play post flop and try to read a hand.

That being said... I DO NOT like to raise here.
Why?

Because limping into a maniac does 2 things in my mind
1 - It tells the maniac we are being tricky, and might actually have a big hand.
2 - Limping keeps us non committed and gives us an easy fold if he pushes.. in terms of losing very little, no pot odds considerations

Based on this assumption.. we now have 4 scenarios..
1 - We limp, he raises 4-8k more. We can now push over top if desired, and the limp can give him thoughts we trapped him, making our hand appear stronger than it is and giving us more Fold Equity. Most times he folds, some calls for a race, and yes we are dominated sometimes if he happened to catch a monster

2 - We limp, he raises 4-8k more. We FOLD.. why are you guys saying dont ever limp fold? seriously, do you think it matters that much to tell the table you wanted to see a cheap flop? and if people think you fold to a resteal shove becuase of this.. we take advantage of that, as they would be doing it to you with lesser hands after this if your logic holds true about showing weakness

3. We limp, he Pushes, We Fold, no big deal

4. We limp, no raise.. we see a flop and have all options open with a better than average hand.. Chk raise.. Open bet.. etc.. And we are only 2k committed, NOT 6-8k. I dont see this as a bad option, easier decisions post flop when we are not heavily invested..

I think limping sets up a push play much better than raising and re popping, in terms of selling a big hand and Fold Equity. And its no crime to fold cheaply or see a flop against a maniac with a better than avg hand.

I really try to vary my play in these situations, but this would be my FIRST approach to the maniac in teh SB / BB battle... It would change each time around

thoughts....

ginzorella

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

i dont get how limping = us being tricky

if we had AA here limping would be absolutely retarded

limping = us being begged to be raped

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

first off we dont have AA, we have KJ, so i am playing teh hand we have
second.. raped? when did losing 2k when we have a 50k stack become "raped"

Raped would be raising this hand, getting pushed, and folding losing 6-8k.

go ahead and tell me how limp folding is getting raped

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

raise to 5,999 and ship teh money cuz he can't do anything with that huge stack o' chips he's now staring at.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
first off we dont have AA, we have KJ, so i am playing teh hand we have

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congratulations. he now knows we dont have a big hand because playing such a hand in the manner you propose is retarded. do you see why?

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second.. raped? when did losing 2k when we have a 50k stack become "raped"

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When you put in chips and knowingly fold a hand that beats his range because you dont know wtf to do

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Raped would be raising this hand, getting pushed, and folding losing 6-8k.

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OOOH! You got one right!

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go ahead and tell me how limp folding is getting raped

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because we are folding a hand that beats his range.

feel better?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

I Limpshove here

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont get how limping = us being tricky

if we had AA here limping would be absolutely retarded

limping = us being begged to be raped

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think limping is being tricky but it's also not begging to be raped (nor even being begged to be raped [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]).

We are announcing that we have a hand that we wish to play and that we are (almost always) calling any reasonable raise(at these stakes, even a relative donkey is not going to expect us to limp fold to reasonable raise) and then acting first on the flop.

Sure, villain can push but then villain would be silly. If villain wants to be silly, then I can fold. Rather this than either raise/fold or raise/flip with this hand and this many BBs.

Most likely, villain will call. That's nice. We have a hand. We are a better player. We are seeing a very cheap flop. If villain raises, we can call and the above still applies. Three cards cost us more but shoving and check-shoving are now reasonable lines given the pot and stacks and who acts first, IMO, hads the advantage.

We can also rr all in pre-flop and we're going to be folding more better hands and for more profit.

I don't see any of this as being raped. I see this as exercising maximum control in what is an inherently volatile situation. The main thing I want to avoid is being asked to call a resteal for my whole stack with a relatively meh hand pre-flop. If I'm UCLA, I'm better than that. Get your stack in by all means, but be the one with FE.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

[ QUOTE ]
First Off, I have played Sit N Gos with the villain, and will gladly confirm hes a loose nutcase, without much regard for chips / money.. does that change late in a 300, might, but I will go ahead with the maniac aggressive label for him.

When playing a crazy aggressive player, most of them would view a standard raise by SB here as a steal i think, and would push over top with Any Ace, Any pair, maybe K10 - KQ. The maniac isnt looking to play post flop and try to read a hand.

That being said... I DO NOT like to raise here.
Why?

Because limping into a maniac does 2 things in my mind
1 - It tells the maniac we are being tricky, and might actually have a big hand.
2 - Limping keeps us non committed and gives us an easy fold if he pushes.. in terms of losing very little, no pot odds considerations

Based on this assumption.. we now have 4 scenarios..
1 - We limp, he raises 4-8k more. We can now push over top if desired, and the limp can give him thoughts we trapped him, making our hand appear stronger than it is and giving us more Fold Equity. Most times he folds, some calls for a race, and yes we are dominated sometimes if he happened to catch a monster

2 - We limp, he raises 4-8k more. We FOLD.. why are you guys saying dont ever limp fold? seriously, do you think it matters that much to tell the table you wanted to see a cheap flop? and if people think you fold to a resteal shove becuase of this.. we take advantage of that, as they would be doing it to you with lesser hands after this if your logic holds true about showing weakness

3. We limp, he Pushes, We Fold, no big deal

4. We limp, no raise.. we see a flop and have all options open with a better than average hand.. Chk raise.. Open bet.. etc.. And we are only 2k committed, NOT 6-8k. I dont see this as a bad option, easier decisions post flop when we are not heavily invested..

I think limping sets up a push play much better than raising and re popping, in terms of selling a big hand and Fold Equity. And its no crime to fold cheaply or see a flop against a maniac with a better than avg hand.

I really try to vary my play in these situations, but this would be my FIRST approach to the maniac in teh SB / BB battle... It would change each time around

thoughts....

ginzorella

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Very nice post sir. Basically, this completely echoes my thoughts too.

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

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I Limpshove here

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if we complete i think he is raising us with any two in position - which obv makes the limpshove look attractive in taking the pot pf.

would anybody who knows villain guesstimate his calling range?

Re: Stars 320 Late Blinds Battle
 

from a theoretical standpoint considering the sklansky chubukov numbers (which is 73 for KJs) you should move-in there! this move has the highest expectation.
but i would limp only. against a random hand you are a 63-37 favorite but if he calls or reraises (maybe with an ace: you are a 42-58 underdog) you are playing out of position. there are better possibilities to bust this aggressive player.