Very tough spot
 

Full live 40. Villain is Gary who was Smoothcall on 2+2 long, long ago. He is a very smart and tricky player. He knows I am pretty crazy and we play back at each other a lot. Important to note is that Gary steams a lot more than some players. At the moment he is steaming a little so his range is a bit looser than normal but it does not seem to be effecting his postflop play.

UTG limps, I limp next with 33, Gary limps in MP, guy limps in LP, sb completes, bb checks. When I limped I say something like "I've had this hand a ton of times today and still haven't won with it".

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Checks around.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check to me I bet, Gary raises, fold to me I 3bet, Gary 4bets

5 bet and check pretty much all rivers except 3/5 (folding some and calling others) or just call down now?

Keep in mind he is capable of 4betting turn with pure air and semibluffs.

Re: Very tough spot
 

"LOL"

-DeathDonkey

Re: Very tough spot
 

Can you explain why not calldown after his first raise? This seems kinda crazy on the surface... I mean, how much induced 4b bluff equity do u have? I thought the steaming didn't affect his postflop play....

Re: Very tough spot
 

removed

Re: Very tough spot
 

The only offensive thing about that picture is that you only posted one.

Re: Very tough spot
 

I agree completely - this post makes it seem like OP's 3-bet is a given and doesn't even ask our opinion on it. I think it is definite spew - you will probably look at 53s or 64s or a weirdly played set plenty when you are raised on the turn. Or he could have busted clubs when he raises sometimes of course (which probably include overcards giving him more outs). I'd probably call the turn and then see what's what on the river (but given what you said I think calling down is probably ok).

Jeff

Re: Very tough spot
 

i dunno why but this reminds me of a hand where i got to 8-bet a guy on the turn with aces on an AT74 board that had two hearts and two spades. the river blanked off, i bet, he folded KQhh face up and said "i missed." someone asked him why he 7-bet me on the turn and he responds "i knew he had aces, i was just raising for value."

Re: Very tough spot
 

"Keep in mind he is capable of 4betting turn with pure air and semibluffs."

youre right. and this is why your turn 3 bet is so so bad.

you played this hand so bad i think it might give us all aids. i never limp w/ 33 in early position anymore, im sold over years of experience that it's just got to be losing poker even in loose good games.

please dont make things worse by posting results. if you won, it's not because you played great it's because your opponent somehow managed to play it even worse than you.

Re: Very tough spot
 

The thing is it didn't have to be a tough spot.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Keep in mind he is capable of 4betting turn with pure air and semibluffs."


[/ QUOTE ]

But what hands is he 4betting for value? I felt the more dollars he put into the pot the more unpossible it would be for him to have me beat.

Re: Very tough spot
 

wtf?

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i never limp w/ 33 in early position anymore, im sold over years of experience that it's just got to be losing poker even in loose good games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Even in loose good games?

Re: Very tough spot
 

lol @ turnplay

Re: Very tough spot
 

Sick as this sounds he's absolutely correct.

Re: Very tough spot
 

At the time I'm pretty sure I would have 5bet the turn but when I thought about it on the way home I decided that you would have some sooted hand with a 4 here too often. However since then I decided you probably wouldn't 4bet that and would opt to just call me down and let me incinerate money. Tomorrow I'll probably think about it more and decide that you could 4bet a 4 in the hopes I would fold a 6 outter since our spazzing increased the size of the pot dramatically.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]


i never limp w/ 33 in early position anymore, im sold over years of experience that it's just got to be losing poker even in loose good games.



[/ QUOTE ]

overlimping 33 utg+1 in a live 40 game cannot be wrong very often.

Re: Very tough spot
 

You are a sick man! But a correct one. How could Gary have a hand here? I bet he knew it would be a hard sell. But he probably thought not likely you have a hand her either. So if Gary picks up a draw what should he do with his hand? Just call? He may have 11 outs if he has hand like 57 for an open ended straight draw maybe 14 outs if up against ace high or air. Maybe calling would be better. But raising always seemed like a stronger play but maybe not agaisnt howmany who will punish you with 33's. Should Gary fold? maybe an option too?

Re: Very tough spot
 

Sorry, too much playing with Mike L and Crazy Mike. Apparently after all these hours I have finally found the perfect combination of Mike L's great play and Crazy Mike's universe bending ability to run good. Unfortunately this probably means everyone will lose every day they play in a game with me.

Or at least I hope so.

Re: Very tough spot
 

I wanna say howmany is a out of control spewer(and occasionally on certain hands he might be). But in this spot i think it is a ballsy and correct play that i dont know if i would have the cohones to pull off myself. I might just call the turn raise like a little girl.

The way howmany plays must cause him sick swings but he usually does the right thing as he is a very good player.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you played this hand so bad i think it might give us all aids. i never limp w/ 33 in early position anymore, im sold over years of experience that it's just got to be losing poker even in loose good games.

[/ QUOTE ]

"LOL"

Re: Very tough spot
 

The folding part or the AIDS part?

The folding part I sort of agree with. In the typical Commerce 60 game I would fold here as it will regularly come back and cost me 2+ more bets that I can't call and will almost always cost at least 1 more. In this game I usually get to see a 5 way flop for 1 bet and I think folding is not best. Preflop in EP I generally look for reasons to fold but I think this is a decent spot still.

Re: Very tough spot
 

In the heat of the moment i'm capable of doing anything. If i sense weakness i usally go with it. Don't know if i would raise again or just call with a 4. I could 4 bet a 4 though.

Re: Very tough spot
 

be honest here guys. the 3 of us all know that neither of you are folding anything A high or better that you went to 4 bets on the turn here with ever before showdown. even if it goes to 8 bets on the turn.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind he is capable of 4betting turn with pure air and semibluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

isnt that a good reason why 3-betting is bad?

Re: Very tough spot
 

Well since I can't think of a made hand that he would 4bet the turn with I think having him 4bet me with nothing would be quite good.

Re: Very tough spot
 

i understand where you are coming from in the semi-logic statement that the more he raises the less likely he is to have a hand, but in a sane game i wouldn't ever considering putting in the 3rd, i'd call down the 2nd... however, given reads and the dynamics i'd try the ol 5-ball trick so he doesnt peel his 6 outs like if we just call down, but at some point i would fold and i think that is at his 6, if he gets that much courage with high card against a maniac image, good for him he has got a winner if we are ui on river... on a side note, i think if someone mixes up their play vs you it could devestate your chip stack based on how strongly you seem to feel people are trying to take you off your hand... - can villain have 44 here? maybe he checks a pair, you did...

Re: Very tough spot
 

"Well since I can't think of a made hand that he would 4bet the turn with"

im calling bs on this. he raises and reraises the turn liberally with all sorts of hands, good, bad, and in between. you know that.

Re: Very tough spot
 

Why would you three bet a pair of threes? If he is full of crap, you could find out soon enough by checking and calling. If you feel complelled to show how well you can sniff out bull shiit with a pair of threes.

You been winning lately?

This goes back to Skalnsky 101, where he states that if small pairs miss on the flop, they should be checked and discarded. What got into players that they think that they have to win every last dollar?

At some point the marginal income is just not worth it, especially raising a pair ot threes on the turn into (unpaired, doubtfully) overcards.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Well since I can't think of a made hand that he would 4bet the turn with"

im calling bs on this. he raises and reraises the turn liberally with all sorts of hands, good, bad, and in between. you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

sort of what I was thinking, but I was also thinking about how he sees your hand. What do you think your hand looks like when you 3-bet? When you call the 4-bet? When you 5-bet?

Since the pot is large now does Gary call the river now?

Re: Very tough spot
 

I would guess Gary will call down a 5bet with any made hand but I am not planning to bet the river unless I improve if I was to 5bet in the first place. Gary's line looks like nothing to me and my line looks like nothing to Gary. I have something so me put dollars into pot.

I really wish he would have 4bet so I would have had to make a decision as to whether I should 5bet or not. I'm beginning to think that he can have 44/55/better than 33 way too often for me to 5bet. I am quite certain that 3betting when he raises is the best play though.

To Gary what my 3bet should look like is either that I have a good hand (unlikely unless I have 44 exactly) or that I know he knows I can have nothing here so I raise again because I can. If I call his 4bet he will know I have some sort of something but he should probably fire the river with a crappy hand again just in case I decide to fold.

Re: Very tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess Gary will call down a 5bet with any made hand but I am not planning to bet the river unless I improve if I was to 5bet in the first place. Gary's line looks like nothing to me and my line looks like nothing to Gary. I have something so me put dollars into pot.

I really wish he would have 4bet so I would have had to make a decision as to whether I should 5bet or not. I'm beginning to think that he can have 44/55/better than 33 way too often for me to 5bet. I am quite certain that 3betting when he raises is the best play though.

To Gary what my 3bet should look like is either that I have a good hand (unlikely unless I have 44 exactly) or that I know he knows I can have nothing here so I raise again because I can. If I call his 4bet he will know I have some sort of something but he should probably fire the river with a crappy hand again just in case I decide to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand looks precisely like 44. Its heads up, of course your going to go to town. If he can 4-bet he is either

1) blind as a bat

2) blind as a bat

3) blind as a bat

4) Way ahead the hand your representing, or HAS the hand you are representing.

I admit that option 3 is very likely, but option 4 is pretty tasty.

Re: Very tough spot
 

"sort of what I was thinking, but I was also thinking about how he sees your hand. What do you think your hand looks like when you 3-bet? When you call the 4-bet? When you 5-bet? Since the pot is large now does Gary call the river now? "

youre overthinking things steven. these two are great players but they love to put in excessive action against other tough players and they see a showdown every time they do this even though they oftentimes have virtually nothing. that's what they are doing here. the extent of their hand reading in these cases is identical: "wow the more this guy raises me the more i know he has nothing either. i raise."

Re: Very tough spot
 

If I'm calling with that hand in EP then I'm betting that flop with it.

I see no sense in 3 betting there when I ch'd the flop, even if I planned to c/r it.

Re: Very tough spot
 

I agree this is a flop bet.

-Michael

Re: Very tough spot
 

I doubt Gary loves to put in excessive action against tough players. Me thinks Gary is forced to becasue players like howmany and mike l. often raise his big bind super light and threebet him super light. He would love to stay out of each others ways and play against the donkeys. But as long as they keep comin after him, he has to go after them to stay on an even keel. Btw i think howmany thrives on confrontation agaisnt good players. Maybe to test and challenge himself to see how he will do agaisnt them. Gary would rather sit back and play the donkeys and not have to think too hard. Gary thinks its fun to play against homwany for the mind games and stuff. But that its much more profitable to not waste time tangling with each other and just concentrate on attacking the fish.

Re: Very tough spot
 

I think you are 100% right in everything you just said.

Re: Very tough spot
 

A lot of your posts remind me of mike's old posts where he'd post about going 27 bets on a 862 flop with JJ against a guy who 3bet him preflop and, no matter what anyone said, he was correct in doing so. Basically hands like these don't have much of a purpose in being posted because, yeah, you had a read and you went with it at the time and I guess the read trumps any poker sense that we could actually contribute to the thread-- it almost feels like you're posting entirely in some weird metastyle designed to say things to those you regularly play with but I don't actually think it contributes anything to the forum. Meh.

Rob

Re: Very tough spot
 

i disagree, although some of the posts seem out of line playwise, they are great for thought and i know of many who appreciate them (myself included)