Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

random - 1. All outcomes being equally probable
2. Unpredictable

[ QUOTE ]
No physical event in the universe is "truly" random. We can really only discuss probabilities when assuming a certain level of ignorance. Adding knowledge means that the probabilities change. Absent any amount of ignorance (as would be the case for an omniscient figure), and all events either have probability 1 or 0, even flipping a fair coin.


[/ QUOTE ]

A discussion under the omnipotence thread here led to a minor discssion about randomness. mickeyg made the above response to a post of mine concerning randomness.

I agree with mickey concernig random events in the physical universe. But I wondered if there ever was or could be a truely random event. This led me to consider the theory of the big bang.

My limited knowledge has the theory stating that time began at the big bang. Before the big bang there existed a singularity or black hole. The theory of a black hole has all laws of physics break down in the black hole. If this is true, if I have it correct, does this man that events within a black hole are undeterminable and unpredictable?

We humans have knowledge of one event that has occurred within a black hole. That is the big bang (expansion). Since within the black hole events were are unpredictable does this fact alone make the big bang a truly random physical event?

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bing Bang

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

We might still be in that black hole...the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself. So put aside questions about black holes and randomness. I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything. In fact, if time is a complex quantity, then there is no 'before' the BB anyway.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are not "obvious" limits to omnipotence and omniscience. There are obvious PROBLEMS with claiming something is omnipotent and omniscient and trying to conceptualize that, and there are obvious "total BS assertions that I have no reason to accept" that are proposed to try to paper over those problems.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are not "obvious" limits to omnipotence and omniscience. There are obvious PROBLEMS with claiming something is omnipotent and omniscient and trying to conceptualize that, and there are obvious "total BS assertions that I have no reason to accept" that are proposed to try to paper over those problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists. You are definitely right about the papering over bit. It's the same with the 'trinity of the unity' types, once somebody just rejects simple logic and says God doesn't have to abide by it then the discussion can't really progress.
Out of curiosity:
Do you think God can know the unknowable if he exists? Do you think everything is knowable? If yes to the second question, why?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this Mickey guy could possibly know that there aren't any truly random events. There could be an omniscient figure which only knows knowable things. Some events might simply be unforseeable/unknowable. There are obvious limits to omniscience and omnipotence.

Personally I think scientists can't justifiably answer this kind of question. It's not something that observation and induction ever could solve. Mostly because we have such a limited perspective on the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I shouldn't have made quite such a blanket statement about randomness. Quantum mechanics is theorized to contain random events on the microscopic scale. Let's put those aside for a second. If there were a physical event that is both truly random AND not related to quantum mechanics, then it would mean science got something wrong.

Take flipping a coin. It seems random because we accept a certain degree of ignorance. We don't know the precise dimensions and mass of the coin. We don't know the precise amount of force that will be applied in the flipping action. We don't know how much wind resistance there will be, etc. All of these things appear to behave according to known laws of physics. If all of those variables were known, and all those laws of physics are correct, then all the information about the coin flip can be calculated and predicted. If the coin flip is truly random then, it must be that those laws of physics were wrong.

Now if you want to throw quantum mechanics in there, things get ugly, and personally I don't feel that the problem has been satisfactorily solved (hidden variable theories and what not). I'm no physicist, but I believe quantum mechanics was disputed by Einstein among others.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes is so 1600s.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We humans have knowledge of one event that has occurred within a black hole. That is the big bang (expansion).

[/ QUOTE ]

The big bang did not arise from a black hole.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bing Bang

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

~ Rick

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would be Badda Bing Bang

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you probably shouldn't consider the BB a random event, either. The BB and the BC are simply "singular" events that bound the state of the universe. The only substantial difference would presumably be that the BB is associated with low entropy, and the BC a high entropy (which gives rise to our perception of a time flow from the past to the future).

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We might still be in that black hole...

[/ QUOTE ]

not the kind described by most scientists

[ QUOTE ]
the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

a possibility

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this unless we make a few assumptions, Lets assume that there was indeed a singularity (black hole) before the big bang occurred. Lets assume that there was an expansion of which we are experiencing. Now finally lets assume that there was a cause of the big bang.Since we could not know the cause as you point out would that lead to a logical conclusion the the big bang was truly a random physical event. If there was a God would it be possible for him to know the cause of the big bang since there were n laws of physics at the time?

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there were a physical event that is both truly random AND not related to quantum mechanics, then it would mean science got something wrong.

Take flipping a coin. It seems random because we accept a certain degree of ignorance. We don't know the precise dimensions and mass of the coin. We don't know the precise amount of force that will be applied in the flipping action. We don't know how much wind resistance there will be, etc. All of these things appear to behave according to known laws of physics. If all of those variables were known, and all those laws of physics are correct, then all the information about the coin flip can be calculated and predicted. If the coin flip is truly random then, it must be that those laws of physics were wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The laws of physics wouldn't be "wrong" they would be right for a huge percentage of cases and research would be done to figure out the edge cases where they don't work. See Einstein and Newtonian physics.

You can't take quantum out of the equations you are talking about because at a certain point the uncertaintanty principle comes into play. So you can't know all the variables involved in the equation. I'm also thinking chaos theory is going to give you a problem as well, see the experiments to describe a dripping faucet or with convection currents.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes is so 1600s.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) If Descartes disagrees, how is that relevant to what I said?

B) What makes you think he disagrees. He makes arguments which involve premises like 'God cannot decieve me if, etc. etc. ' I would like to know why you attribute the belief that God can achieve the logically impossible to Descartes?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

The Big Bang, it's one thing

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes is so 1600s.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) If Descartes disagrees, how is that relevant to what I said?

B) What makes you think he disagrees. He makes arguments which involve premises like 'God cannot decieve me if, etc. etc. ' I would like to know why you attribute the belief that God can achieve the logically impossible to Descartes?

[/ QUOTE ]

A) You mentioned that most "philosopher types" accept the idea, so I pointed to a very prominent example of a "philosopher type" who does not. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but I think it's especially interesting considering Descartes would have needed a very strong handle on logic in order to do his mathematical work.

B)Wikipedia told me, so it must be true, right?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also published a clearly flawed "proof" of god's existence. But he is famous.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
since there were no laws of physics before the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

We cannot possibly know that.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A) You mentioned that most "philosopher types" accept the idea, so I pointed to a very prominent example of a "philosopher type" who does not. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but I think it's especially interesting considering Descartes would have needed a very strong handle on logic in order to do his mathematical work.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't agree with Bork, Descartes wasn't exactly a master logician. Hell, even in his math he was prone to unjustified assumptions.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We cannot possibly know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

well according to our physcists the laws of physics break down or are not valid within a singularity. I'm assuming this is true.

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We cannot possibly know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

well according to our physcists the laws of physics break down or are not valid within a singularity. I'm assuming this is true.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? The "laws" of physics are nothing more than mathematical constructs that allow us to predict observable phenomena. Our physicists are not omniscient by any stretch of the imagination, nor do they claim to be.

True, our current approximations of the universe (which no physicist would claim are complete) do not allow us to predict or describe anything before the big bang or within a singularity. But that does not mean that the big bang was unpredictable or that no predictable laws govern the behavior of singularities. Our laws of physics are based on what we can observe. We haven't discovered a way to observe singularities. If we could, maybe we would be able to create laws that would predict their behavior.

There is far too much we don't understand about our universe to assume that because we haven't found a way to predict or describe an observation, it could never be predicted or described.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is far too much we don't understand about our universe to assume that because we haven't found a way to predict or describe an observation, it could never be predicted or described.


[/ QUOTE ]

I beieve that I said that we must asume that the laws of physics are not valid within a singularity. I also assume that we are saying that because of this, events that occur within a singularity, are not and can not be predicted by any intelligence even an omniscient one. In other words they are unpredictable. An omniscient being would know this is true just as he would know math theories are true and unchangeable. I believe these assumptions are fair given what we assume to be true about black holes (should they actually exist as our physicists believe).

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is far too much we don't understand about our universe to assume that because we haven't found a way to predict or describe an observation, it could never be predicted or described.


[/ QUOTE ]

I beieve that I said that we must asume that the laws of physics are not valid within a singularity. I also assume that we are saying that because of this, events that occur within a singularity, are not and can not be predicted by any intelligence even an omniscient one. In other words they are unpredictable. An omniscient being would know this is true just as he would know math theories are true and unchangeable. I believe these assumptions are fair given what we assume to be true about black holes (should they actually exist as our physicists believe).

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

The bolded part is wrong. An omniscient being would know all possible outcomes and have a reason why the normal laws of physics break down past a normal singularity.

The big bang is termed a singularity of sorts, and is treated as a singular event. This may be correct, but it's certainly incorrect to compare black holes with big bangs. The properties of the two should logically be different.

There is much yet to discover about the exotic properties of this universe. What's for certain is the event is unique. You cannot compare something that expanded spacetime to a huge, complex structure to a normal black hole. Apples and oranges.

The OP asks whether it was a random event. Probably not, but as far as science knows, it is an unique event.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The OP asks whether it was a random event. Probably not,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the crux of the question. Why is the answer to a random event "probably not"?

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The OP asks whether it was a random event. Probably not,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the crux of the question. Why is the answer to a random event "probably not"?

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

The best answer I can give is that it happened and there is such a thing as axiomatic logic. Perhaps an astrophysicist can give a more meaningful answer.

I'll try though. In a scenario with infinite potential and infinite possible outcomes, randomness cannot emerge except as a perceptual mistake made by a finite being.

Just theory, of course, but if the scope is that big, and omniscience exists, everything that will happen, must happen, but the sequences would only appear random on a linear vector. That doesn't discredit uncertainity, however.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
randomness cannot emerge except as a perceptual mistake made by a finite being

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not meant as criticism but this sounds like doublespeak.

[ QUOTE ]
but if the scope is that big, and omniscience exists,everything that will happen, must happen, but the sequences would only appear random on a linear vector.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you also mean that everything that "can" happen, must happen?

Your argument sounds similar to the poster that said that nothing is truly random. I agree with that because in a physical world we cannot imagine true randomness in the strict definition of the word. But we are not talking about a physical world. We are speaking of a singularity. A place where physics does not apply. A place where events are not deterministic.

The event, the big bang, is not the issue. We can also assume that the result of the event, the big bang, was the only possible result. The random event of which I am trying to establish is the cause of the big bang. Certainly we do not know the cause, o.k. or even if there was a cause. I am again assuming that there was a cause. I am also assuming that the cause came from within. I guess we could argue that something like the singularity ran into a smaller amount of anti-matter and the result was a tremendous release of enregy resulting in the universe (not anyone's theory just a made up point). But the real point is that within a universe (and I believe that the singularity can be considered a universe) that is not bound by nor even responds to physical laws, randomness is (o.k. may be) possible.

Oh, one other thing. I am sure that you are a lot smarter than me so please show some compassion.
pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes had many silly ideas. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You mentioned that most "philosopher types" accept the idea, so I pointed to a very prominent example of a "philosopher type" who does not. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but I think it's especially interesting considering Descartes would have needed a very strong handle on logic in order to do his mathematical work.

[/ QUOTE ]

how many accounts do you need, splendour?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Descartes had many silly ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was french.

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, one other thing. I am sure that you are a lot smarter than me so please show some compassion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I treat everybody fairly, regardless of intelligence, so no worries on that score. You may be giving me too much credit, however.

I just think a multiverse model is viable, and I spend a lot of time thinking about infinity and the possibilities and reasoning behind it. That doesn't make me smarter than anybody, just more willing to be wrong and take risks.

[ QUOTE ]
The event, the big bang, is not the issue. We can also assume that the result of the event, the big bang, was the only possible result. The random event of which I am trying to establish is the cause of the big bang. Certainly we do not know the cause, o.k. or even if there was a cause. I am again assuming that there was a cause. I am also assuming that the cause came from within. I guess we could argue that something like the singularity ran into a smaller amount of anti-matter and the result was a tremendous release of enregy resulting in the universe (not anyone's theory just a made up point). But the real point is that within a universe (and I believe that the singularity can be considered a universe) that is not bound by nor even responds to physical laws, randomness is (o.k. may be) possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you're describing an oscillating universe model. This might be viable, but each iteration would have a different result and there would be an infinite series of results. I don't think there's a first cause but there is probability and potentiality.

Whether the big bang is an unique event or a significant event in a succession of events... It's difficult to ascertain without more information, and that is what exactly science lacks in practical terms. They can only theorize as to how and why.

And until this event is replicated successfully perhaps through a computer model or an industrial accident, more likely the latter given man's predilection for such... Opinion would be divided.

I think randomness can occur in finite sets in where the outcome is uncertain, but on large scales, it cannot occur in infinite sets because the properties of infinity seem to determine that everything will happen, just that the when is uncertain.

Perhaps the big bang happened at a random time in a finite set of potential events, and there were other singularities that came to nothing or had no result. Basically null-events.

A deeper look into multiversal models and contrarian outlooks on temporal theory forces one to grasp at things without the background of previous proofs. It's uncharted territory. There is logic behind it though, and dead end or no, I'll continue exploring the possibilities.

I just don't see infinity as a blanket situation, but something with structures within structures. Makes me a little odd and probably disagreeing with some of the basic accepted theories.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

I'm done. Thanks

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

the big bang was THE random event, it won't ever be anything other than 100% random and unexplainable, unless the leaders of the future world convince all of humanity they know why it happened.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We are speaking of a singularity. A place where physics does not apply. A place where events are not deterministic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, we don't know this. As I understand it, M theory ( link ) may allow us to predict and explain the big bang. Right now it is still an unproven, incomplete mathematical construct, but that doesn't mean it will be wrong.

You seem to be making an unwarranted assumption about the completeness of our laws of physics. It is not correct to conclude that because our current theories can't explain or predict singularities, that singularities are not governed by predictable laws. It is entirely possible (and in my view, more likely than not) that the behavior of singularities is entirely deterministic (or at least probabilistic) and predictable. It also may be that we will never be able to determine the rules that govern singularities because of limits on our ability to observe and perceive physical phenomena or because of biological limits on our math ability. But that does not mean that no rules, in fact, govern their behavior.