Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)
 

Hero is cdbr3799, talented mtt player and pocketfives allstar.

Use your own reads for the two main villains in the hand, Shaniac and Vanessa Rousso.

I am reposting this from the p5's thread that SCTrojans made.

25-50 blinds
effective stacks all 20k

cdbr3799 raises UTG+1 with 4h7h to 150
UTG+2 calls
UTG+3 calls
Cutoff calls (shaniac)
SB calls (vanessa rousso)

flop 8s 6s 5d

SB checks
CDBR3799 bets 400
UTG+2 folds
UTG+3 calls 400
Cutoff (shaniac) raises to 1800
SB (vanessa) raises to 4200

WTF do you do if you are CDBR3799?

There are no real reads on players other than what you already know about Shaniac/Vanessa - this hand is about 7 minutes into the tournament.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

I'm not folding against these villians. (yes I know we are 400bb deep)

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

flop bet is horribly small

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

meehhh. [censored] spot. you can't flat here and allow a spade to peel off, or board pair, can you? idk if i would...

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

r/r to 12k or maybe even shove since it looks like you have overpair and cant get away from it. With shaniac behind and obviously calling the r/r with any draw if you call, I think you have to raise this and try to get it ai on either flop or turn. I'm only folding this hand if one of them are nut peddlers.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

hard to imagine folding over a forum post, but i can see it irl.

Also, I'd shove if i wasnt folding.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)
 

I haven't played with Vanessa in a long time, but back when I last did (Feb '06), she was a rock. What a sick spot, raise with a crap hand, flop the virtual nuts, and have to face this. I think this is a fold, since there's a good chance you're drawing to one of 3 9's to split the pot. Either one of these players could have the nuts, I would say Vanessa's range is heavily weighted toward it.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

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agree, and think he should push and live with the result as played.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

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Also IIRC Thay3r and Imper1um are at this table. So it's not like you can raise ATC and run everyone over. As played flop bet is way to small. Ugh I have no idea what to do with the raise because I think shoving folds out tons of worse hands, calling leads to tons of crappy turn spots and we have the second nuts so obv don't fold.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incidently, I agree, but I don't mind raising this hand in early position like 50-100xBB deep when the table is tight and you can steal or take it down with a cbet with 7 high. This hand has some value and it adds unpredictability to your play. But you really want to raise it when stealing the blinds is valuable.

Here you just wind up OOP in a 5-way pot with a junk hand.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

Is vanessa capable of making this raise with 77/99?

I would shove here, if she is such a rock she is not going to be calling with 79 OOP

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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Is vanessa capable of making this raise with 77/99?

I would shove here, if she is such a rock she is not going to be calling with 79 OOP

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she's getting 7:1 and the stacks are deep, of course she calls with 97 (suited or not).

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

I hope that's sarcasm, calling oop if you're vanessa rousso is horrid there with 97.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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I hope that's sarcasm, calling oop if you're vanessa rousso is horrid there with 97.

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you're prob right that its -EV for her to call there.

but I dont know much of his play but I imagine the very most ppl would call for the additional 100, at least if it was suited so taking it out of her range is out of the question.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

She's calling with 72s, let alone 97s, I'm just saying that it's not particularly good to be calling there with a ride range just because you're deep. In the sb that's a huge disadvantage, not an advantage.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

She is also making the same raise with 88 on the flop to define her hand.

Im not folding 2nd nuts here, its a clear shove IMO

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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She's calling with 72s, let alone 97s, I'm just saying that it's not particularly good to be calling there with a ride range just because you're deep. In the sb that's a huge disadvantage, not an advantage.

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alright, never said calling was a good play just that I think most players do, however I actually thought she was in BB (not SB) which makes it a little different and the possibility that she mucks 97o (and to some degree 97s) higher.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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I haven't played with Vanessa in a long time, but back when I last did (Feb '06), she was a rock.

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Vanessa is anything but a rock. If anything, she errs on the side of putting chips in the pot, not playing too tight.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad someone else said it first. I always see these posts and think to myself "really?" But then again, I never flop straights, so maybe its just me. In my life, when I try this move some nit sitting behind me reraises to 1200 PF.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad someone else said it first. I always see these posts and think to myself "really?" But then again, I never flop straights, so maybe its just me. In my life, when I try this move some nit sitting behind me reraises to 1200 PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's, like, the fourth hand of the day...no one's re-raising to 1200, and if they do, who cares? His preflop splash might be "bad," but it's almost never disastrous.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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flop bet is horribly small

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what's wrong w/ leading T400 into a T500 pot?
I probably do the same.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero is cdbr3799, talented mtt player and pocketfives allstar.

Use your own reads for the two main villains in the hand, Shaniac and Vanessa Rousso.

I am reposting this from the p5's thread that SCTrojans made.

25-50 blinds
effective stacks all 20k

cdbr3799 raises UTG+1 with 4h7h to 150
UTG+2 calls
UTG+3 calls
Cutoff calls (shaniac)
SB calls (vanessa rousso)

flop 8s 6s 5d

SB checks
CDBR3799 bets 400
UTG+2 folds
UTG+3 calls 400
Cutoff (shaniac) raises to 1800
SB (vanessa) raises to 4200

WTF do you do if you are CDBR3799?

There are no real reads on players other than what you already know about Shaniac/Vanessa - this hand is about 7 minutes into the tournament.

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Sick spot. I guess like others have said if I continue with the hand, I probably shove and hope someone thinks I can't get away from overpair. I am trying to put myself in the situation to realistically make a judgment of whether I fold or not. Honestly, I don't think I could get away from this hand which means I probably shove, which as I type it seems a little ridiculous given I am putting almost 20k to win 6k.

I may get flamed for this, but I might consider calling and seeing the action behind me/turn action. Problem with calling: sets and combo draws (As7s) are part of the mix here = lots of bad turn cards. If a spade hits or board pairs I am hurting, especially if Shane or UTG+3 call behind me. But if I call and the turn is safe, I continue with the hand.

Least attractive to me right now is RRing w/o shoving; any reraise that does not at least price in Venessa commits you to the pot and if someone shoves behind you are calling anyway. If I really knew Venessa's and Shane's game well (I don't) I might consider RRing w/o shoving as their subsequent actions might be easier to interpret. Otherwise I am committing myself to a hand in which I don't know what my opponents have.

I could fold. But IRL I don't think I would.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad someone else said it first. I always see these posts and think to myself "really?" But then again, I never flop straights, so maybe its just me. In my life, when I try this move some nit sitting behind me reraises to 1200 PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's, like, the fourth hand of the day...no one's re-raising to 1200, and if they do, who cares? His preflop splash might be "bad," but it's almost never disastrous.

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Shane,

I wasn't implying it was disastrous. I was acknowledging that I think its a bleed. Why can't he limp here?

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

I wouldn't fold... why the hell cant vanessa have a set? Or the same hand as us? I don't understand, she's not going to reraise with 88, 66 or even 55 or who knows what else, I've seen her hand against Clonie on TV! Also I don't see her folding at least some of these hands if we reraise.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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Aren't we UTG with 8 players left to act behind us and in a bad position postflop (especially since its deepstacked so we can expect a lot of calls that have position against us).

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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flop bet is horribly small

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what's wrong w/ leading T400 into a T500 pot?
I probably do the same.

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Pot is about 800.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)
 

I am UG+1, my hand is disguised so well because raised PF, and hit 2nd nuts on this board w/ 2 flush cards out, if the action is back to me, it will be a push to make sure sets, flush draws pay to catch, and that a scare card on turn does not kill the action.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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Aren't we UTG with 8 players left to act behind us and in a bad position postflop (especially since its deepstacked so we can expect a lot of calls that have position against us).

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why is being called so bad? if u get multiple callers and flop nothing or just a weak pair you can just check/fold.

and since it's live there are probably a few people at the table who stink and you wanna play pots with them, out of position or not.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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Shane,

I wasn't implying it was disastrous. I was acknowledging that I think its a bleed. Why can't he limp here?

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He can fold, too, and I'm sure he does most times, but I reckon raising is superior to limping for "metagame" or something. Based on the length of time that he tanked it to Vanessa's raise, I figured he had an overpair.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)
 

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I am UG+1, my hand is disguised so well because raised PF, and hit 2nd nuts on this board w/ 2 flush cards out, if the action is back to me, it will be a push to make sure sets, flush draws pay to catch, and that a scare card on turn does not kill the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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flop bet is horribly small

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what's wrong w/ leading T400 into a T500 pot?
I probably do the same.

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Pot is about 800.

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oops you are correct.
Lead 600 or 650 better.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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Aren't we UTG with 8 players left to act behind us and in a bad position postflop (especially since its deepstacked so we can expect a lot of calls that have position against us).

[/ QUOTE ]

why is being called so bad? if u get multiple callers and flop nothing or just a weak pair you can just check/fold.

and since it's live there are probably a few people at the table who stink and you wanna play pots with them, out of position or not.

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I wouldn't raise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's just not a good spot IMO.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

[/ QUOTE ]

what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

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i'm not sure how u determine from me raising 74s that I open 90% of pots from utg+1. i'm probably opening something like

22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,43s,AJo+,KQo

maybe a few more suited connectors and maybe A9s. That's less than 20% of hands.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

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[ QUOTE ]

Shane,

I wasn't implying it was disastrous. I was acknowledging that I think its a bleed. Why can't he limp here?

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He can fold, too, and I'm sure he does most times, but I reckon raising is superior to limping for "metagame" or something. Based on the length of time that he tanked it to Vanessa's raise, I figured he had an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shane,

I was originally going to say in previous post that I realize the argument for raising pre is for metagame purposes, disguising hand, blah, blah, blah. I was going to comment that just because he limped so deep doesn't mean that you know what he has. However, I guess this is the kind of situation in which raising pre can be an asset b/c he can be mistaken for an overpair.

Now I am wondering if this situation comes up often enough for raising to still be profitable. I suppose given implied odds (of course, I don't know the outcome of hand) and metagame maybe it could be +EV, but you have to factor in the amount of times you wiff and amount of times you get rerasied off a hand that you could have limped and called a raise behind if pot odds warrant.

You know what, maybe this is just too much discussion about such a trivial decision, but lately I find myself bleeding early b/c of the rationale you mentioned.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

djk you have no concept of the unreal bad reverse implied odds you have here w/ 74s 400bb deep. This isn't "tournament" deep, this is legit deepstacked poker. One of the reason super deepstacked tournaments are so +EV early on is that tournament players have no concept of what 400bb deep poker means.

When you are 100bb-150bb, even 200bb, you have a good stack for winning enough big pots against overplayed 1 pair hands, and you can flop a big draw sometimes, and u can just take down a decent sized pot w/ whatever sometimes because your hand is so disguised. When you have 400bb, you are way more likely to have a 2nd best hand if you get into a huge pot, and this hand is perfect evidence of it.

Think of it this way... When you are 100bbs deep it is very reasonable to stack 1 pair hands with 74s. When you make a 2nd best hand (but a strong one), you will potentially lose 100bb at most. When you make a 7 high flush raising utg into 8 players.... how often do you think u will win if u get into a huge pot w/ 400bb stacks? Far less often.

The deeper u get here, the more important nut drawing hands become. 98s would be an ok raise here, but 74s is just not good enough. Using the excuse that its deep and 3 bbs doesnt matter, or cause it's live and you are bored is just bad poker.

ALSO, the really obvious reason that I prob dont need to explain... POSITION. utg is not the button, so stop playing like it is. Unless you only get called by the blinds, you will be out of position with 400bbs. And believe it or not, but being OOP is MUCH worse deep, because now you are guaranteed to be OOP on many more decisions.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

yay ansky.

Re: Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shani
 

[ QUOTE ]
implied odds

[/ QUOTE ]


no!!!! there is no reason to think you have implied odds this deep! You are all so used to thinking of implied odds in terms of flopping sets vs obv overpairs, or whatever, NOT w/ 7 high flushes or 2nd nut straghts, or trips w/ 7 or 4 kickers 400bb deep into several players.