Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

I'll have more on this later.

Good morning United States. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D8PSFGFO2.htm

The United States should face commercial sanctions worth more than US$3.4 billion (euro2.5 billion) each year for its failure to comply with a World Trade Organization ruling that its Internet gambling restrictions are illegal, the Caribbean nation of Antigua and Barbuda said Wednesday.

Antigua, which won a WTO ruling last year against the U.S. restrictions, is asking the trade body for authorization to target American trademarks and copyrights if the U.S. refuses to change its legislation.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll have more on this later.

Good morning United States. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D8PSFGFO2.htm

The United States should face commercial sanctions worth more than US$3.4 billion (euro2.5 billion) each year for its failure to comply with a World Trade Organization ruling that its Internet gambling restrictions are illegal, the Caribbean nation of Antigua and Barbuda said Wednesday.

Antigua, which won a WTO ruling last year against the U.S. restrictions, is asking the trade body for authorization to target American trademarks and copyrights if the U.S. refuses to change its legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent news, Jay! This plus the EU news makes for good stuff for us.

I think we're in far better shape now for this than we were just six months ago. As you know, the U.S. has something of a history of thumbing its nose at NGOs like the WTO and the UN (to whom we went a decade without paying dues). In fact, conservative politicians actually run against the UN. However, with the wildly successful IGREA hearings that exposed the fact that our opponents simply don't like gambling, combined with our ongoing lobbying efforts (plus the virtual disintegration of the Republican Party), we now have a changed landscape. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Many of the people who forced the ban on us are gone, and the remaining ones are out of power in Congress. Henry Paulson, the Treasury Secretary, is a big-time free trader who must hate UIGEA as much as we do (for different reasons, though equally principled).

Everyone, please write and call Congress, newspapers, and large companies of which you own stock. Express concern and alarm. Let's still back all the bills that are in Congress...after all, that's how we got where we are today (i.e., positioned to fight back).

P.S., before Antigua signs off on this, they should insist on a presidential pardon for our friend Jay.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

When can we expect to see some detailed analysis come out of what to expect? I guess the lynchpin of any hopes we have of returning to making a good living hinge on whether or not compensation for other trading partners is proportional, i.e. does EU compensation get multiplied by the size of its economy, or size of its remote gaming sector, or is "harm" going to be hammered out by a neutral arbitration panel?

And Engineer(should I call you The Engineer), can we slip into this week's action plan contacting newspapers, radio call in shows, and magazines? I think if instead of calling or writing Congress this week, we pick a radio talk show and call in trying to get some play on this. If we can get people to think of this issue in terms of pandering to the religous right is costing the US economy 10-11 figures a year, we could see more political pressure come to bear. Im trying to call into Washington Journal this morning on CSPAN, and I'll do Talk of the Nation this afternoon. I am writing my local paper and The National Review when I get enough information and some more lengthy news stories to reference my letters to.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
And Engineer(should I call you The Engineer), can we slip into this week's action plan contacting newspapers, radio call in shows, and magazines? I think if instead of calling or writing Congress this week, we pick a radio talk show and call in trying to get some play on this. If we can get people to think of this issue in terms of pandering to the religous right is costing the US economy 10-11 figures a year, we could see more political pressure come to bear. Im trying to call into Washington Journal this morning on CSPAN, and I'll do Talk of the Nation this afternoon. I am writing my local paper and The National Review when I get enough information and some more lengthy news stories to reference my letters to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either "Engineer" or "TheEngineer" is fine, of course.

We already have an action item to contact newspapers and other media, so we're probably okay for now. You're correct that we'll likely wish to update the actions to reflect these trade issues. I'll wait for a few replies to these threads and will use that data to develop the updated plan. After all, I don't make these up, then give marching orders. Rather, we make the plan as a team and I post them as the group plan (I ask for input, use polls, and otherwise glean direction from the posts here).

I'm calling my congressman and both senators today. I may call Paulson as well (I tried yesterday). I hope everyone here will as well.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

Updated article: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/...ess/gamble.php

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

I just called my congressman and both senators. I live in a horse-friendly state with a substantial aerospace and agriculture presence, so these guys care about the Interstate Horse Racing Act as well as potential EU sanctions. I don't know if they'll come around, but at least I was able to direct the conversations toward things they care about.

While they have no desire to take orders from the WTO, they do want to make sure the WTO is strong enough to give orders to others.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

Actual filing:

UNITED STATES – MEASURES AFFECTING THE CROSS-BORDER SUPPLY OF GAMBLING AND BETTING SERVICES (WT/DS285)

Recourse by Antigua and Barbuda to Article 22.2 of the DSU

Antigua and Barbuda requests that the following item be included in the agenda of the meeting of the Dispute Settlement Body (the “DSB”) of the World Trade Organisation (the “WTO”) to be held on 24 July 2007:

“United States – Measures Affecting the Cross-Border Supply of Gambling and Betting Services” (WT/DS285)

Recourse to Article 22.2 of the Understanding on Rules and Procedures Governing the Settlement of Disputes by Antigua and Barbuda

Pursuant to Article 22.2 of the WTO’s Understanding on Rules and Procedures Governing the Settlement of Disputes (the “DSU”), Antigua and Barbuda requests authorization from the DSB to suspend the application to the United States of concessions and related obligations of Antigua and Barbuda under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (the “GATS”) and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (the “TRIPS”).

Antigua and Barbuda’s aim through this suspension is the effective withdrawal of concessions and other obligations so as to match the level of nullification or impairment of benefits accruing to Antigua and Barbuda, amounting to an annual value of US $3.443 billion, as a result of the United State’s failure, as of 3 April 2006, to bring its measures affecting the cross-border supply of gambling and betting services into compliance with the GATS or to otherwise comply with the rulings and recommendations of the DSB in United States– Measures Affecting the Cross-Border Supply of Gambling and Betting Services (“DS285").

Antigua and Barbuda has held discussions with the United States with a view towards agreement on compensation, but to date these discussions have not resulted in any agreement. Antigua and Barbuda remains hopeful that further discussions may result in resolution of this issue, and if so it will inform the DSB as soon as practicable.

Background

On 21 July 2003, the DSB established a panel at the request of Antigua and Barbuda. Both the panel and the Appellate Body in DS285 found certain measures of the United States to be inconsistent with the obligations of the United States under the GATS. On 7 April 2005, the DSB adopted the report of the panel, as modified by the report of the Appellate Body. The resulting DSB recommendations and rulings include, inter alia, the recommendation that the United States bring the measures found to be inconsistent with the GATS into conformity with its obligations under that agreement. (WT/DS285/AB/R, para. 374). A WTO appointed arbitrator subsequently determined that the “reasonable period of time” for the United States to implement the DSB recommendations and rulings would expire on 3 April 2006.

The compliance period expired on 3 April 2006 without action being taken by the United States to bring its measures into compliance with the recommendations and rulings of the DSB in DS285. On 10 April 2006 the United States submitted a status report to the DSB regarding implementation of the DSB recommendations and rulings in which the United States informed the DSB that, in its opinion, it was in compliance with the DSB recommendations and rulings. At a meeting of the DSB on 21 April 2006, the United States informed the Members that the United States was in compliance with the DSB Rulings. At the same meeting, Antigua expressed its disagreement with the United States' assertion of compliance.

On 23 May 2006, Antigua and the United States concluded “Agreed Procedures under Articles 21 and 22 of the Dispute Settlement Understanding Applicable to the WTO Dispute United States – Measures Affecting the Cross-Border Supply of Gambling and Betting Services (WT/DS285)” (the “Agreed Procedures”). In conformity with the Agreed Procedures, on 8 June 2006 Antigua made recourse to Article 21.5 of the DSU by requesting consultations with the United States. Subsequent consultations were held in Washington, D.C., but did not result in a settlement of the dispute. As there was clearly a dispute between the parties “as to the existence or consistency with a covered agreement of measures taken to comply with the recommendations and rulings” of the DSB in the original proceeding, on 6 July 2006 Antigua submitted a request for the establishment of a panel pursuant to Article 21.5 of the DSU, and at its meeting of 19 July 2006 the DSB agreed to form the panel.

On 30 March 2007, the panel issued its report, in which it concluded that the United States remained out of compliance with the recommendations and rulings of the DSB in this matter.

Pursuant to Article 22.2 of the DSU and paragraph 7 of the Agreed Procedures, Antigua and Barbuda hereby requests authorization from the DSB, at the next meeting of the DSB to be held following the provision of this notice, to suspend the application to the United States of concessions and related obligations under the TRIPS and the GATS in an annual amount of US $3.443 billion.

Antigua and Barbuda Recourse to Articles 22.3(b) and (c) of the DSU

In considering what concessions and obligations to suspend, Antigua and Barbuda applied the principles and procedures set forth in Article 22.3 of the DSU, and makes this request pursuant to Articles 22.3(b) and (c). Antigua and Barbuda is a developing country with a population of approximately 80,000. With a combined landmass of only 442 square kilometres, Antigua and Barbuda is by far the smallest WTO member to have made a request for the suspension of concessions under Article 22 of the DSU and realises the difficulty of providing effective counter measures against the world’s dominant economy. The natural resources of Antigua and Barbuda are negligible and as a result not only are the country’s exports limited (approximately US $4.4 million annually to the United States) but Antigua and Barbuda is required to import a substantial amount of the goods and services needed and used by the people of the country. On an annual basis, approximately 48.9 percent of these imported goods and services come from single source providers located in the United States. The imposition of additional import duties on products imported from the United States or restrictions imposed on the provision of services from the United States by Antigua and Barbuda will have a disproportionate adverse impact on Antigua and Barbuda by making these products and services materially more expensive to the citizens of the country. Given the vast difference between the economies of the United States and Antigua and Barbuda, additional duties or restrictions on imports of goods and services from the United States would have a much greater negative impact on Antigua and Barbuda than it would on the United States. In fact, ceasing all trade whatsoever with the United States (approximately US $180 million annually, or less than 0.02 percent of all exports from the United States) would have virtually no impact on the economy of the United States, which could easily shift such a relatively small volume of trade elsewhere.

Antigua and Barbuda further considers that the circumstances are serious enough to justify the suspension of concessions or obligations under other covered agreements in addition to the GATS. As a result of Antigua and Barbuda’s lack of natural resources, the bulk of the economy is dependent upon tourism and the provision of banking and other financial services. Antigua and Barbuda, initially with the cooperation of the United States government, looked to the provision of gambling and betting services as a way to diversify its economy and create the growth needed to assist the country in moving from a developing to a more advanced status. Prior to the actions taken by the United States to prevent the provision of gambling and betting services from Antigua and Barbuda to consumers in the United States, it is estimated that the gambling and betting services sector accounted for more than ten percent of the gross domestic product of Antigua and Barbuda and was the fastest growing segment of the economy. Recent efforts by the United States government to further prohibit and impede the provision of these services to consumers in the United States have greatly harmed the Antiguan service providers, while domestic providers in the United States continue to prosper in the absence of prohibition and criminal prosecution. Under the circumstances, the United States’ prohibition of these services and its non-compliance with the recommendations and rulings of the DSB in DS285 forces Antigua and Barbuda to proceed in the manner requested despite the difference in level of development with the United States, the large disparity in their trade relations and despite the harsh economic reality affecting Antigua and Barbuda which affects its ability to exercise its rights under Article 22.

In addition to the reasons described above, the suspension of concessions and other obligations corresponding to a value of US $3.443 billion and wholly applied to the importation of services from the United States is neither practicable nor effective for various reasons. First, Antigua and Barbuda made no commitments under the sector at issue in DS285, GATS Sector 10.D., “Sporting and Other Recreational Services,” in its Schedule of Specific Commitments under the GATS (GATS/SC/2) (the “Antigua Schedule”). Second, with respect to most of the other services covered by the Antigua Schedule, as noted above suspension of concessions in the form of higher duties, tariffs, fees or other restrictions would have a disproportionate impact on the economy of Antigua and Barbuda and little or no impact on the United States. Third, even if Antigua and Barbuda were to rely exclusively on a suspension of concessions under the GATS, Antigua and Barbuda would clearly not be able to recover the full amount of nullification and impairment caused by the inconsistent measures.

Additionally, in Antigua and Barbuda’s view, the United State’s continued non-compliance renders the circumstances serious enough, within the meaning of Article 22.3(c) of the DSU, to justify the imposition of appropriate countermeasures under other covered agreements, given that Antigua and Barbuda’s gaming industry will continue to suffer serious losses, the government of Antigua and Barbuda will be deprived of critical revenue, the people of Antigua and Barbuda will be enjoined from participating in much needed employment and the overall economy of the nation will continue to suffer adverse effects for such time as the United States does not withdraw the measures at issue in DS285 or remove their adverse effects.

Summary of Countermeasures

Because the withdrawal of concessions solely under the GATS is at present not practicable or effective, and the circumstances are sufficiently serious to justify Antigua and Barbuda exercising its rights under Article 22, Antigua and Barbuda requests authorization to suspend concessions and other obligations under the TRIPS.

For the reasons given above, Antigua and Barbuda intends to take countermeasures in the form of suspension of concessions and obligations under the following sections of Part II of the TRIPS:

Section 1: Copyright and related rights
Section 2: Trademarks
Section 3: Industrial designs
Section 5: Patents
Section 7: Protection of undisclosed information

Suspension of Concessions Under the GATS

Antigua and Barbuda may also suspend horizontal and/or sectoral concessions and obligations for the following sector contained in the Antigua Schedule:

2. Communication Services

Until such time as the United States brings its measures into compliance with the rulings and recommendations of the DSB in DS285, every year Antigua and Barbuda will notify the DSB of the amount and the form of the suspension of concessions if proposed to be different in any respect from the preceding fiscal year, as applicable.

Compliance with Article 22.4

As required by Article 22.4 of the DSU, the level of suspension of the above concessions or other obligations proposed above by Antigua and Barbuda is lower or equivalent on an annual basis to the nullification or impairment of benefits accruing to Antigua and Barbuda resulting from the United States’ failure to comply with the DSB’s recommendations and rulings in DS285.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

WOW! And this is only Antigua's amount requested.
Imagine how much the E.U. will be asking for in addition.
This could reach what, 10 billion per year you think?

obg

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Engineer/Jay,

Has there been any effort to push our position to the primary 2008 Presidential candidates? Especially for those candidates that haven't stated there position, wouldn't it be useful for them to hear our position before they have to discuss it in any capacity? I'll bet a guy like Guilianni hasn't even thought about the issue or hasn't solidified his thoughts and if it were possible to get the issue in front of him from our perspective now, so he wouldn't have to change his mind later (which I believe he has shown his is disinclined to do), we'd be in better shape. I know this may be thinking too far ahead in some respects, but we may not get what we want before then and if he's asked in any sort of public forum, gives the wrong answer and then gets elected, and if nothing had happened before that to change the legislation, it will be much more difficult to get changes to take place.

Thoughts?

PS. By the way, I (and I assume there are many more of us) who REALLY appreciate the work the 2 of you are doing. Thanks.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Jay,

Assuming this request gets on the current agenda, and that it receives approval, is there the usual multiple rounds of appeals of that remedy similar to the original dispute? A key part of the US strategy has always been to delay, so I am just wondering how much further they can drag this out.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Antigua's Press Release:

ANTIGUA SEEKS APPROVAL FOR TRADE SANCTIONS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES IN GAMBLING CASE


ST. JOHNS, Antigua. The government of Antigua and Barbuda today announced that it has moved under Article 22 of the Dispute Settlement Understanding of the World Trade Organisation to seek the imposition of trade sanctions against the United States for having failed to comply with a WTO ruling in favour of Antigua on the subject of cross-border gambling and betting services. In the filing made today, Antigua has informed the WTO of its intention to seek concessions with an annual value of US $3.443 billion, primarily through the suspension of Antigua’s obligations in respect of copyrights, trademarks, industrial designs and patents under the WTO’s intellectual property rights or “TRIPS” agreement. This action, once approved by the WTO, could have significant implications for American intellectual property rights and represents a material escalation in the stakes at play in the gambling case.

Dr L. Errol Cort, Antigua’s Minister of Finance and the Economy, expressed his government’s resolve, stating “While we realise this is a significant step for Antigua and Barbuda to take, we feel we have no other choice in the matter. We have fought long and hard for fair access to the United States market and have won at every stage of the WTO process. Until such time as the United States is willing to work with us on achieving a reasonable solution to this trade dispute, we will continue to use every legitimate remedy available to protect the interests of our citizens.”

Antigua has expressed its frustration on many occasions over the failure of the United States to engage with Antigua over a mutually agreeable bilateral resolution of the dispute, and instead maintaining an uncompromising posture despite repeated success by Antigua in the WTO dispute resolution system. In the most recent, 30 March 2007 WTO report on the case, the reviewing panel observed that the United States maintains an extensive domestic remote gaming industry while prohibiting foreign service providers access to the markets. The report also clarified that United States laws as written and applied sanction many domestic remote gambling opportunities, none of which are available to Antiguan service providers.

“Despite having been dressed up by the United States as a moral issue,” said Dr Cort, “All along this has simply been a trade issue. This industry has been and can be regulated. We are willing to work with the United States government to ensure that its legitimate interests are protected. But unfortunately, there appear to be powerful interests in the United States that want to protect the domestic industry from competition. That is not only unfair and wrong, but contrary to the letter and spirit of the WTO agreements.”

The sanctions requested by Antigua will come into effect shortly, unless the United States refers the issue to arbitration, in which event a panel of WTO arbitrators will decide on the final level and scope of the sanctions that may be imposed by Antigua. The recent, unprecedented announcement by the United States that it was acting to withdraw its commitments in respect of gambling and betting services has not altered Antigua’s strategy. “We remain entitled to the benefits of our victory in the WTO,” said Mark Mendel, Antigua’s lead counsel in the case. “Whether the United States is able to withdraw its commitment with respect to other countries is one thing, but Antigua has its victory and the United States is obligated to comply with it. With Antigua poised to impose massive sanctions against substantial United States business interests with absolutely no connection to gambling, it certainly seems time for the United States to come to grips with this case and work out a settlement. But if we can’t convince the United States to sit at the bargaining table with Antigua, maybe some of the adversely affected American business interests will be able to do so.”

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jay,

Assuming this request gets on the current agenda, and that it receives approval, is there the usual multiple rounds of appeals of that remedy similar to the original dispute? A key part of the US strategy has always been to delay, so I am just wondering how much further they can drag this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there are no appeals in this round.

I assume the US will contest Antigua's claim and a panel will be seated in 60 days or less. I think once the panel is seated it will take 60 to 90 days. No appeals.

I'll have a better schedule for you very soon.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
Has there been any effort to push our position to the primary 2008 Presidential candidates? Especially for those candidates that haven't stated there position, wouldn't it be useful for them to hear our position before they have to discuss it in any capacity? I'll bet a guy like Guilianni hasn't even thought about the issue or hasn't solidified his thoughts and if it were possible to get the issue in front of him from our perspective now, so he wouldn't have to change his mind later (which I believe he has shown his is disinclined to do), we'd be in better shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't done a lot in this area. I sent Giuliani an email asking for his position last month, but I received no reply. Maybe now that several New York have cosponsored IGREA, he may have an opinion. I do think there's an opportunity there, perhaps.

Ron Paul is actively working for our right to play, as I imagine we all know. I don't know about Fred Thompson's position. As for the other candidates, as far as I can tell they're actively against us (especially Brownback).

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

US will lose. this will be interesting

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
US already lost. this will be very interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

This ruling means nothing and is a dead end. The US will just take the ball and walk home. The US has ignored WTO rulings in the past and will continue to ignore it so long as it has the international clout to do so.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
This ruling means nothing and is a dead end. The US will just take the ball and walk home. The US has ignored WTO rulings in the past and will continue to ignore it so long as it has the international clout to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what would happen if the American people simply sat back and refused to do anything. However, that's not the case. There are several bills in Congress to modify UIGEA, and we're getting attention. This is one more tool for us. Also, the social conservatives who were forced this on us don't have nearly the power they had last year.

As I mentioned before, I don't see the finish line. We have a long way to go. This is simply one more step toward us achieving our goal.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
This ruling means nothing and is a dead end. The US will just take the ball and walk home. The US has ignored WTO rulings in the past and will continue to ignore it so long as it has the international clout to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this wasnt from a "green" poster, Id think it just trolling to provoke a response.

I would like to see an example of where the US has "ignored" WTO rulings in the past. I could cite plenty of examples of the US using the WTO to get rulings against other countries (we just started another one with China, for example).

The US can ignore the ruling only to the extent that it refuses to change its discriminatory laws on internet gambling and chooses to accept the consequences and pay the compensation - thats possible.

But what the US cannot do is refuse to change our laws AND not pay the compensation. That would violate the treaty so openly as to remove any last bit of US credibility in the world left after the Bush administration.

Once the US decides to violate the treaty, so will everyone else. The US as a whole benefits far more from the WTO than is realized by this post.

So what is the US going to do when Antigua starts selling unlicensed movies and software? Invade Antigua? Well we could, of course, but that would be the end of the WTO as we know it. So then China resumes selling pirated movies and software. Think there is any chance of the US succesfully invading and occupying China?

This ruling does not guarantee a victory for poker players, but the idea that the US can INDEFINITELY ignore this ruling is the real "dead end."

Skallagrim

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Updated article: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/...ess/gamble.php

[/ QUOTE ]

can someone elaborate on this segment?

"After losing the case at the WTO, Washington announced that it would take the unprecedented legal step of changing the international commitments it made as part of a 1994 treaty regulating trade in services among the 150 members of the WTO. As a result, Washington declined to challenge the WTO ruling, because it says that its legal maneuver effectively ends the case."

what commitments were changed?

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual prop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Updated article: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/...ess/gamble.php

[/ QUOTE ]

can someone elaborate on this segment?

"After losing the case at the WTO, Washington announced that it would take the unprecedented legal step of changing the international commitments it made as part of a 1994 treaty regulating trade in services among the 150 members of the WTO. As a result, Washington declined to challenge the WTO ruling, because it says that its legal maneuver effectively ends the case."

what commitments were changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

The U.S. claimed it was all a typo, and that we never intended to have our gaming sector as part of GATS. Our "solution" was to withdraw from the gaming sector of GATS, then claim the issue was solved.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This ruling means nothing and is a dead end. The US will just take the ball and walk home. The US has ignored WTO rulings in the past and will continue to ignore it so long as it has the international clout to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what would happen if the American people simply sat back and refused to do anything. However, that's not the case. There are several bills in Congress to modify UIGEA, and we're getting attention. This is one more tool for us. Also, the social conservatives who were forced this on us don't have nearly the power they had last year.

As I mentioned before, I don't see the finish line. We have a long way to go. This is simply one more step toward us achieving our goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, that will be an interesting US lobbying group.

Lobbyist: we really want you to support the WTO decision to pay $3.4 billion to Antigua on a clause about gambling.

US Congressman: but that will take billions away from my constituents and is money that could be spent on healthcare and education. Not to mention 10s of billions of dollars in potential lawsuits that it opens up if the US agrees to pay.

Lobbyist: yea but if we do this people will be able to gamble on the internet.

Congressman: ...

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

???????????

The U.S. doesn't have to support the WTO decision for it to take effect. The WTO isn't sending us a bill. Antigua plans to take the money by violating our intellectual property rights (i.e, they can pirate movies, software, etc.). I guess you didn't read any of the posts before stopping by to tell us how misguided you think we are.

Are you trying to get us to give up?!?!

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Re: examples of where US has ignored WTO in the past

In 2003, the US had sanctions of $150 million against it by the WTO Appelate body by a handful of small countries. The claims were about an illegal anti-dumping law (the Byrd Amendment) which is valid in the US. Similar situation.

link

The US has ignored it basically and has been appealing up the wazoo.

Other similar cases were on steel, cotton and tax breaks given to US exporters which result in sanctions of billions of dollars. AFAIK lawmakers in the US basically ignored all of this. Anything that requires an amendment to US laws based on international law has probably close to zero chance of passing.

You should focus your energies on other options. This is a dead end. The U.S. will leave the WTO before it has to pay billions in sanctions.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to see an example of where the US has "ignored" WTO rulings in the past. I could cite plenty of examples of the US using the WTO to get rulings against other countries (we just started another one with China, for example).

[/ QUOTE ]

In my field, tax, there's a long-playing example that was finally resolved a couple of years ago. The United States used to have targeted tax breaks helping businesses that exported. The Common Market (yes, this dates back that many years ago) complained, and there were battles over this. Indeed, I think this dates back to the mid-1970s (before I was in college), but I'm unsure of just how old this issue was. But I digress....

In any case, when GATT and the WTO came about, there was an annual ritual: The WTO would rule that the tax scheme passed by Congress was invalid. Congress would pass a new tax scheme that was just as invalid (and, Congress knew that it was invalid; this was discussed on the record at the time). The European Union would complain, file a WTO action, and the following year the WTO would rule against the US. After several years of repeating this cycle, Congress passed the Section 199 Production Activities Deduction (which is the law today).

When I read some of the posts on this issue (and other similar issues), there's a dose of un-reality. When the first WTO complaint was won by Antigua, the U.S. appealed on moral grounds. The WTO upheld the right of the US to ban all online gambling on these grounds. (The US, though, allowed online horserace betting, thus, in the end, losing the case.)

There is no way that Congress--Democrat or Republican--is going to cede an issue (gambling) to the WTO or any other organization that is considered a morals issue rightly to be decided by Congress. Indeed, if the WTO told that to Congress, the vote to withdraw from GATT/WTO would be close to unanimous in Congress.

I agree completely with Gidwulf that the US will leave GATT/WTO before it pays a penny in sanctions.

-- Russ Fox

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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The US has ignored it basically and has been appealing up the wazoo.

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The U.S. has been appealing this up the wazoo as well and keeps losing. It is time to pay the piper now, it's appeals are up.


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The U.S. will leave the WTO before it has to pay billions in sanctions.

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By leaving the WTO, it will pay billions in sanctions indirectly, the U.S. needs the WTO

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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This is a dead end. The U.S. will leave the WTO before it has to pay billions in sanctions.

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Again, the U.S. doesn't have to PAY, in terms of getting a bill.

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You should focus your energies on other options.

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Is that an order? Quite authoritarian, considering we've not seen you much on this forum and considering you don't seem to have researched this much.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

While I do believe that people have a tendency to believe what they want to, and perhaps we are seeing the world through rose colored glasses, I'm just not *getting* your argument GW. I certainly don't see the Bush Administration LEAVING the WTO over this, and certainly not their (hopefully) more sane replacement. We have been central in supporting the WTO over the years. We are not leaving over something like this, and certainly not over a measly few billion dollars.

That said, these clowns in executive branch live their own world, so maybe they are just that crazy. More likely, they hem and haw until they leave office.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

The FSC tax issue and the Byrd amendment were ulltimately resolved, but only after Congress was looking down the sanctions barrel. And it did take some time.

In the FSC tax issue with the EU, the WTO awarded about $18 billion in sanctions against unrelated industries. It was only when these unrelated industries found out there were going to be tariffs on their exports that they started calling their Congressmen and Congress took action.

For example, (I don't know if apple growers were targeted, but ;et's say they were.), Farmer John calls uphis Congressman and said I don't know what a FSC tax is, but you better fix this because it's about to have an impact here on your constituents.

You get the idea. IP interests don't want this to happen just as much for precedent as anything else.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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There is no way that Congress--Democrat or Republican--is going to cede an issue (gambling) to the WTO or any other organization that is considered a morals issue rightly to be decided by Congress. Indeed, if the WTO told that to Congress, the vote to withdraw from GATT/WTO would be close to unanimous in Congress.

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No doubt. We won't give up our sovereignty. The WTO cannot "force" us to to this. Rather, this is a tool we can use to our advantage, so we should use it.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

say antigua gets what it wants. will 3 billion worth of pirated stuff hurt usa businesses--such as the music and movie industry--enough that they will get on the horn with the government to work on a resolution? i sure hope so.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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say antigua gets what it wants. will 3 billion worth of pirated stuff hurt usa businesses--such as the music and movie industry--enough that they will get on the horn with the government to work on a resolution? i sure hope so.

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They value their IP rights greatly....it goes well beyond the dollar amounts. These guys will be quite angry over it if it happens.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

As a matter of fact today Paulson has warned Congress about economic isolationism and it's negative effects as we try and solve the problem with the Chineese and it's valuation of it's currency.

This isn't a one way street where the U.S. can just close it's borders and block everyone out.

Further we need the help of other nations (through various international bodies) to help back us in our (multiple) fights against China at the moment.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Like I have said before, there is a middle ground here if the US would just come to the table in good faith. All concerns could be addressed and this matter could be settled to ALMOST everyone's satisfaction.

Part of the problem has been throughout this process, the USTR's office has not been doing their job. Once the US loses a case, the USTR is supposed to advocate for the WTO's position with Congress. Instead they have acted like just another political wing of the administration.

Hopefully some phones will start ringing next week when this news trickles down to the affected parties.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Russ,

What you and gildwulf fail to understand is this is not about having the US pay money directly. Antiqua is asking for copyright/trademark suspension. This is very different.

The ramifications are not just a simple "ignore and this will go away". Instead this will cost US businesses a large amount of money. One fine example is allofmp3.com. This company sells mp3s for 10cents a song vs a buck for same song at itunes. Antiqua sets up a "mp3 farm" with the WTO's blessing and visa/mastercard will be right there as well. Visa/Mastercard pulled out of allofmp3.com due to pressure from other countries. However with Antiqua having WTO support, visa/mastercard can justify their presence.

Another example is "movies". Pay to download Movies for 1 buck. How many businesses would this hurt? How about purchasing adobe CS 3 (2007) version for $10 instead of $800?

Also, how about Sql server 2005 which Microsoft sells to businesses for 25k+. I am a small business owner with 50 employees and I notice this ad on yahoo by Antiqua based company selling Sql server 2005 for $120 and its legal...hmm..now will I buy $120 version or call Microsoft...

I do not think many of you understand how much money this would cost US businesses. Anything that is protected via US or international copyright becomes fair game in Antiqua and it will have the WTO blessing. This is much larger than many of you realize.

cheers
Boon

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Good find:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...googlenews_wsj

"As the world opens its doors, we must resist the sentiment that favors economic isolationism; this is not the time to retreat from the principles which have made America so strong and competitive," Mr. Paulson said.

Mr. Paulson's message favoring integration over isolationism comes as a number of bills are simmering in Congress that would penalize Chinese imports in retaliation for Beijing's policy of limiting appreciation of its currency. Some members of Congress have expressed anger that the Treasury Department refrained from citing China for manipulating the yuan in its latest report to Congress on foreign exchange.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

Agree. Also, as for the EU, agriculture will be affected. The Iowa Farm Bureau is sponsoring an upcoming presidential debate. I wonder if they'll be interested in asking questions about this.

Anyone here have contacts in Iowa?

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

I know very well what it could cost US businesses. So let's assume that all this comes to pass.

Microsoft complains to Congress. Congress tells the WTO that if they don't immediately reverse this decision, the US will withdraw from the WTO, and impose trade sanctions on any country(ies) that allows intellectual property of Americans to be counterfeited/copied. I submit this is much more likely to happen if such sanctions ever took place.

What do I think will really happen? The WTO will be pressured by the US to accept token payments (forget the billions being stated today; it will be millions at most), and the WTO will agree that gambling isn't covered under GATT/WTO for the US (that it was a "typographical error").

Both sides on this will, in the end, compromise. This isn't what Jay Cohen wants to see as the resolution, but this is much, much more likely than billions being paid or intellectual property being copied. Both sides compromised after 30 years in the tax dispute. I see something similar happening here (but hopefully a lot faster than 30 years).

-- Russ

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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Both sides on this will, in the end, compromise. This isn't what Jay Cohen wants to see as the resolution, but this is much, much more likely than billions being paid or intellectual property being copied. Both sides compromised after 30 years in the tax dispute. I see something similar happening here (but hopefully a lot faster than 30 years).

-- Russ

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Umm see my post above. I have always said there is a middle ground here.

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

I have to agree with Owl, the U.S. will never leave to WTO, we use it as much as anyone else.

RE Byrd Amendment:

However, the last congress (2006) repealed the Byrd Amendment.

http://www.usmission.ch/Press2006/0202ByrdRepeal.html

So, yes, congress will at times respect the WTO.
The only question is will they this time or simply let Antigua do as it may and work out a deal punishing some U.S. company in dealings with the E.U. to protect the moralist religious right and far left who want to manage my/ your / our life in detail.

It did however take SIX YEARS before congress accepted the WTO and I guess was tired of the 72% penalty.

http://www.caltradereport.com/eWebPa...094251285.html

obg

Re: Antigua Files for Remedies- $3.4 billion per year in intellectual
 

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Good find:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...googlenews_wsj

"As the world opens its doors, we must resist the sentiment that favors economic isolationism; this is not the time to retreat from the principles which have made America so strong and competitive," Mr. Paulson said.

Mr. Paulson's message favoring integration over isolationism comes as a number of bills are simmering in Congress that would penalize Chinese imports in retaliation for Beijing's policy of limiting appreciation of its currency. Some members of Congress have expressed anger that the Treasury Department refrained from citing China for manipulating the yuan in its latest report to Congress on foreign exchange.

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I read a number of Paulson's speeches and writings prior to writing to him. Yes, he's a big free trader. I think we have hope there.