Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Final table WCOOP ME. Ka$ino has played an aggressive big stack game the entire tournament. There was a lot of criticism of this hand in MTTC and NVG. Of course she doesn't know what she's doing since she is a girl. There is no way I can post this without results. However, I was wondering if people here had criticisms of the play on each street.

Poker Stars, $2,500 + $100 NL Hold'em Tournament, 125,000/250,000 Blinds, 3 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

LadyMaverick (BB): 7,909,864
ka$ino (BTN): 36,081,860
TheV0id (SB): 15,968,276

Pre-Flop: (450,000)
<font color="red">ka$ino raises to 630,000</font>, TheV0id folds, LadyMaverick calls 380,000

Flop: (1,460,000) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
LadyMaverick checks, <font color="red">ka$ino bets 880,000</font>, LadyMaverick calls 880,000

Turn: (3,220,000) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
LadyMaverick checks, ka$ino checks

River: (3,220,000) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">LadyMaverick bets 2,000,000</font>, <font color="red">ka$ino raises to 34,546,860 and is All-In</font>, LadyMaverick calls 4,374,864 and is All-In

Results: 15,969,728 Pot
LadyMaverick showed 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Sixes and Threes) and LOST (-7,909,864 NET)
ka$ino showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, Jack high) and WON 15,969,728 (+8,059,864 NET)

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Bet/calling this river is terrible, I saw it when it went down. Either check/call or bet/fold. And I would check/raise the flop.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Oh obviously fold preflop too. That's arguably the worst mistake she made in the hand.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I really don't mind preflop with pot odds in the BB. Preflop could also be a reraise/fold, although just folding to the raise is fine.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I said it in the official thread and I'll say it again:
slowplaying bottom 2 OOP = expert.

Is there more than like 5 cards in the deck that she actually likes to see peeled off on the river?

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

preflop is bad, she should just 3 bet
flop is OK
turn seems standard for tourney players given other stuff
riv depends on other stuff that ka$ has done, i didnt watch it so i dont know

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't mind preflop with pot odds in the BB. Preflop could also be a reraise/fold, although just folding to the raise is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't either as long as she's competent post-flop, but clearly she isn't so she can't call here OOP.

This hand was played horrendously I saw it go down. If you don't check/raise the flop, you have to lead the turn, and if you don't, you have to check/call the river, or bet/fold, not bet/call.

To put it simply, she misplayed every street with the worst possible line on each one.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't mind preflop with pot odds in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the way she was playing. She was constantly calling in the BB, and then C/F or C/R the flop, that's sloppy card dictated poker that has a ton of flaws.

The fact that she C/R KT on this flop 100% of the time, and even a retarded at the table has picked up on that already is just another reason her slowplay sucks so bad here.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I think she managed to make a few mistakes here. I won't get into PF, but check/calling flop and then checking turn is really bad here, considering ka$ino had a great tendency to raise when bet into in such spots.

Her bet/call river is also very debatable. It's a bad spot for ka$ino to bluff-raise her, IMO he would much rather do it in any other spot in the hand as played.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

calling pf is pretty bad

c/r flop please.

and bet/calling the river is kind of silly, there is just no chance he's shipping with a hand that doesn't beat bottom 2- like, literally i can't imagine someone trying to pull that hopeless of a bluff- but she could.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

obv Vanessa missed Chapter 4 - Game Theory "fold preflop"

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

dont mind preflop? huh

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Pf is terrible if your going to play as bad as shed did the rest of the hand

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

3-bet preflop for sure.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

hand is so butchered that i cant decide if its worse that she called pre, check called the flop, or bet called the river.

i think bet calling the river is awful though and i also hate not check raising the flop given her stack size and that Ka$ino might do something sillylike 3 bet a lot of hands on the flop.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

IMO the whole hand is fine if you are playing against someone that is super super laggro (wasn't watching table).

Preflop for me is standard, I call there vs anyone. (Edit: sometimes I 3 bet I guess, but not often. I would never fold unless my opponent was God.)

Flop, default is obviously to check raise, and i think it's only ok to call against someone that is super super laggro and will bet the turn a very high % of the time.

Turn (see flop, as she was obviously trying to check raise)

River it's probably best to check call. It's a decent river to bluff.

If the opponent is really bad and super over aggro, then the line she took is fine.

I only like bet/fold on the river against tight opponents.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I think preflop is really bad, especially given that she will and does play so poorly OOP postflop.

Flop is ok if she knows what to do the rest of the hand. She doesn't. So flop is awful from her perspective. She should c/r or c/c then play better later.

Turn she should lead after c/c'ing flop.

River is horrendous for obvious reasons.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the whole hand is fine if you are playing against someone that is super super laggro (wasn't watching table).

Preflop for me is standard, I call there vs anyone. (Edit: sometimes I 3 bet I guess, but not often. I would never fold unless my opponent was God.)

Flop, default is obviously to check raise, and i think it's only ok to call against someone that is super super laggro and will bet the turn a very high % of the time.

Turn (see flop, as she was obviously trying to check raise)

River it's probably best to check call. It's a decent river to bluff.

If the opponent is really bad and super over aggro, then the line she took is fine.

I only like bet/fold on the river against tight opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, villain was playing well and very aggressively, so I didn't think it was that bad. I would have check/called the river though.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

This is mastr

there is nothing wrong with calling pre given she's getting over 4:1 , C-R flop seems best, although call seems arguable.
Bet-fold river seems like best play by far

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is mastr

there is nothing wrong with calling pre given she's getting over 4:1 , C-R flop seems best, although call seems arguable.
Bet-fold river seems like best play by far

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a call on the flop is perfectly fine IF she's going to lead the turn. People never give respect when you check/call and lead blank turns, and he's very liable to raise her at which point she can shove. Also it doesn't allow him to check behind and hit (like he did).

So if you aren't check/raising flop, she needed to lead turn. On the river if she's playing aggro person why wouldn't she want to check/call? Bet/calling seems retarded to me.

The question is, what part of villains range will he bluff on river, vs. what part of his range will he call a value-bet? Also you have to consider if he's capable of bluff shoving over a bet.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

we've taken a pretty polarized line by check-calling flop and leading river... either we're very strong and missed our c-r on turn or we're complete air floating... if we were going for thin value we'd probably be better off c-calling river... THEREFORE, I feel that it is incredibly unlikely for us to be bluffed off this river and betting seems the best way to get looked up here vs checking which most people will naturally assume we're some middling 1-pair hand and not try to bluff us off it, thus making it go check-check with a very wide range of his hands

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I don't get why everyone is saying preflop is awful given the pot odds.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
we've taken a pretty polarized line by check-calling flop and leading river... either we're very strong and missed our c-r on turn or we're complete air floating... if we were going for thin value we'd probably be better off c-calling river... THEREFORE, I feel that it is incredibly unlikely for us to be bluffed off this river and betting seems the best way to get looked up here vs checking which most people will naturally assume we're some middling 1-pair hand and not try to bluff us off it, thus making it go check-check with a very wide range of his hands

[/ QUOTE ]


I suppose you're right, it could be better to bet/fold because villain is going to go check-check on all the medium strength hands.

The question is what's villain's range by this point after raising PF, c-betting flop and checking through turn? I think it's very likely he's on some kind of draw or air because a medium pair is going to betting to protect on the turn.

So basically I'm saying that I'm not sure if villain ever has a hand worth calling here, I think villain's range is equally as polarized as ours and in that case you have to be check/calling.

I dunno what's the best, but I think bet/calling is the worst, and I think checking the turn after calling flop is horrible.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

wardekar, I agree with your secondary thoughts about bet/calling and checking turn, but I disagree that his range is that polarized, turn check can mean inf things from pot control to giving up to a decent trap against VR with a monster.

Psyduck, you forget that we're way better then everyone else which answers your question [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
wardekar, I agree with your secondary thoughts about bet/calling and checking turn, but I disagree that his range is that polarized, turn check can mean inf things from pot control to giving up to a decent trap against VR with a monster.

Psyduck, you forget that we're way better then everyone else which answers your question [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm like one of the biggest proponents to checking through turns in position with medium strength hands and keeping the pot controlled, so it isn't quite as polarized as Vanessa's perhaps, but you said he has air or w/e and plans on giving up? Let me ask you this, if you go check/call, check, check on a board like this, with a pot that size, you're telling me he's not firing river a very large % of the time he has air here?

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

not on the T63 rainbow flop

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

How the hell do preflop pot odds matter when you are playing a hand that completely depends on flop texture and implied odds? Unless you're planning on making a move on the flop which doesn't seem smart then pot odds don't matter at all when you have a decent amount of money behind.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
How the hell do preflop pot odds matter when you are playing a hand that completely depends on flop texture and implied odds? Unless you're planning on making a move on the flop which doesn't seem smart then pot odds don't matter at all when you have a decent amount of money behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your hand isn't that bad to play against almost a random hand from the raiser. Your hand is also hard to read and easy to pure bluff with, since you usually have 6 high.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

i cant believe people are advocating a call oop with 30bb here

flop is fine, but she should bet the turn when it checks through.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

preflop is OK. Post flop also OKish although I like a check raise more here. Turn is horrible. Bet the turn and reevaluate on the river.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't mind preflop with pot odds in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the way she was playing. She was constantly calling in the BB, and then C/F or C/R the flop, that's sloppy card dictated poker that has a ton of flaws.

The fact that she C/R KT on this flop 100% of the time, and even a retarded at the table has picked up on that already is just another reason her slowplay sucks so bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to reiterate for those saying that they don't mind the flop that given her line versus her usual of C/R or folding, villain, even a dumb aggro villain, is checking behind on the turn with a draw 100% of the time.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think preflop is really bad, especially given that she will and does play so poorly OOP postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats my stance

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Preflop is only bad when she plays all the other streets as she did. Preflop is fine if she check raises after the flop and / or bets the turn.

We should be discussing how we would have played it, not warping our thinking with how she actually did play it.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I think as played on flop and turn is OK with some table dynamics versus an aggressive villain. If she was generally check/folding or checkraising, then check/calling and calling the turn is slightly suspicious and a checkraise is much better.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

Preflop isn't terrible for some people, but against a good opponent, when you suck, it is terrible.
I don't mind c/c flop but that turn I would lead since half the deck is a bad river card and it sets up a good river shove.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

preflop seems really bad without some specific plan. If villian plays well I can't imagine this is ever good, and is obv terrible for her. The flop is obv risky but fine against an aggro opponent, you should probably be checkraising more often but this is probably fine based on history/metagame stuff. Turn is then also fine. River is probably a bet/fold but it's obviously not as easy a fold to make in the actual moment as it seems in theory.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

I would rarely fold this hand in the BB to this size raise preflop. She is getting 3-1 pot odds and villain is probably raising 90% of his hands. This hand doesn't do well against a random hand allin, but it is a reasonably good hand to play. Despite the results, you don't usually get into trouble with it. It is not likely to be dominated.

She definately had a skill disadvantage against villain, which is one reason not to play. Also, with the tournament situation, she wants void to bust out first. Void is playing very tight, due to chip situation and because he knows Ka$ino is aggressive and LadyMaverick is over her head. You don't want to get run over by the big stack, but it is probably best to avoid marginal situation like this, and try to let Void bust first.

Postflop, she had the read that Kasino was aggressive and was trying to trap. Her play is not as bad as it looks when you consider the read, and don't know the results. However, she did not play well.

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

quick question for the c/c and lead turn camp.

if you lead the turn and get called, what is the plan for the river?- doesn't leading the turn for a decent sized bet essentially commit you to the pot?


ie, if she leads 2,000,000 into 3.5 on the turn and gets called (i believe kasino would have called since he picked up a nice combo) the pot swells to 7.5 and she has ~4.5 behind when the river peels. what's the plan at that point?

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

i missed the FT and im not really sure about how aggressive kasino is, but what about 1/4-1/2 psb lead on the flop and let him raise you. If he decides to call, you can either go for c/r or lead again on turn.
As played:
Before i answer on turn, has the guy been double barreling often or anything like that? How aggressive this guy is post-flop really decides this. I like leading turn if I do not know if the person will continue. If it seems likely that the guy will bet again on turn then I think its fine. The real question on turn is: what are you calling with on flop that he can 2nd barrel against that we are not calling?

Re: Vanessa\'s bustout hand
 

i think aggressive calls on all streets is optimal