Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Software (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
-   -   New Software: Holdem Manager (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=435845)

rvg72 06-25-2007 05:05 PM

New Software: Holdem Manager
 
Public Beta for Manager: July 15th
Public Beta for HUD: Shortly Afterwards

After 8 months of development and almost 2 months in private beta, Holdem Manager is just about ready for widespread public use. I'm also the author of Tourney Manager, a bunch of free tools donated to 2+2 (most notably the ROI simulator and the Preflop 3/4 Bet Equity Calculator) and have been active on these forums for a couple of years.

So, I figure a picture speaks a thousand words so let's start with some screen shots of the Manager:

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/ImportTab.jpg

Here is the Import tab. Here I'm about 80% into a 650K hand import which on my old desktop takes about 5 to 6 hours. It might be worth noting that this was a multi million hand database before this import. Holdem Manager will run extremely well with 10 million+ hand databases and also, import speeds for the ten millionth hand are not much slower than they are for the first hand. Another thing you might want to know is that you can switch to other tabs and run reports on the hands as they are importing and then jump back to the import tab to see the progress of the import. No more locking up thanks to multi threading.

Here is the Report tab and I've selected the "By Game Buyin" report.

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/ByBuyin.jpg

The default stats for the report appear here but there are well over 100 different stats available that can be applied against any report. Holdem Manager also tracks 170 different values per player per hand! Holdem Manager currently has 10 reports ("overall", "By Game Buyin", "By Hole Cards", "By M Group", "By Number of Players", "By Position Type", "By Preflop Activity Facing Hero", "By Stack Size", "By Flop Hand Value", "By Flop Bet Size") but none of these are hard coded. Instead, all report are simply xml documents describing what he report should do and located in the \Reports folder. What this means is that people can create and share their own, very complex reports. In fact, I will be adding functionality whereby you can browse, search and download new reports right from your Report tab and begin using them right away. Here is the xml file for the most basic report, the Overall Results report:

<Filter Name="Overall Results" >
<DefaultStats>
<DefaultStat FieldName="TotalHands" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="NetAmountWon" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="BBPer100" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="VPIPPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="PFRPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="ThreeBetPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="WentToShowdownPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="WonAtShowdownPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="PostFlopAggressionFactor" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="FlopContinuationBetPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="TurnContinuationBetPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="FlopFoldedToContinuationBetPct" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="TurnFoldedToContinuationBetPct" />
</DefaultStats>
</Filter>

Let's say you wanted to create a new report that shows overall $ and win % for various made hands at showdown. This is what the xml would look like:

<Filter Name="by Showdown Hand Value" FilterByExpression="SawShowdown=True" OrderByExpression="NetAmountWon desc">
<Groupings>
<Grouping FieldExpression="FlopMadeHandValue" ColumnName="FlopMadeHandValue" ColumnHeader="Flop Made Hand Value">
<Ranges>
<Range MinValue="-1" MaxValue="-1" RangeName=" 0) Unknown" />
<Range MinValue="0" MaxValue="11" RangeName=" 1) High Card" />
<Range MinValue="20" MaxValue="39" RangeName=" 3) One Pair" />
<Range MinValue="40" MaxValue="59" RangeName=" 4) Two Pair" />
<Range MinValue="60" MaxValue="79" RangeName=" 5) Three of a Kind" />
<Range MinValue="80" MaxValue="99" RangeName=" 6) Straight" />
<Range MinValue="100" MaxValue="119" RangeName=" 7) Flush" />
<Range MinValue="120" MaxValue="139" RangeName=" 8) Full House" />
<Range MinValue="140" MaxValue="159" RangeName=" 9) Four of a Kind" />
<Range MinValue="160" MaxValue="179" RangeName="10) Straight Flush" />
</Ranges>
</Grouping>
</Groupings>
<DefaultStats>
<DefaultStat FieldName="TotalHands" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="NetAmountWon" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="BBPer100" />
<DefaultStat FieldName="WonHandPct" />
</DefaultStats>
</Filter>

Now save this and throw it in the \reports folder, launch Holdem Manager and run the report. Here are the results:

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/ShowdownHandValue.jpg

Here are a couple more interesting reports:

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/ByMGroup.jpg

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/FlopHandValue.jpg

I have taken a different approach to a "Session". I believe that all hands played in a block of time should be included in the session rather than a per table view. However, I will likely be adding per table and per stake views as well to this tab but by default this is what you get:

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/Sessions.jpg

I can put any stats in the Session View - for now I just have these standard ones selected.


The Hands view isn't too exciting yet but I will be adding a lot more here and linking everything up to a create replayer with complete stats for each player.

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/Hands.jpg

Graphs and Charts are also in its early stages but you can see the standard winnings graph for now. Much more coming here in the near future.

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/GraphsAndCharts.jpg

The Player Summary tab is pretty amazing. Complete detailed stats for every player matching the filter / minimum hands criteria. There are actually four different reports, the screen shot shown below is the "All Players Matching Filter" report and there is also the "Top 100 Money Winners", "Top 100 Money Losers" and what will be extremely powerful, the "Fish List" which grabs all of the worst players. You will be able to create your own Fish Queries and have them be applied here but the default should be ok for most people.

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/PlayerSummary.jpg

Here is the Fish List

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/PlayerSummaryFish.jpg

The Player vs Player form is what you would expect. The differences are that 1) it includes hands where there are side pots / multiple winners, it shows medium and big wins and losses vs each player and shows the largest win and loss vs each player.

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/PlayerVsPlayer.jpg

I think some of you have already seen the picture of the HUD in the 3-bet thread but here it is again:

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/HM/HMSummaryView.jpg

The HUD will be going into private beta soon but for now, besides what I have posted in that other thread, I'm keeping it under wraps.

What else... The filtering is pretty powerful, I'm not going to get too much into it at the moment but for example, I have 12 different classifications of a "pair" and doing things like "show me all hands where player xyz 4 bet me preflop" or "show me hands where I had top pair good kicker on the flop but an overcard landed on the turn" are all extramely easy to put together.

I'm not decided on pricing however it will be comparable to the pricing of current products although likely a little higher.

Currently I have support for Party, Stars and Full Tilt. If you want your site supported before the beta launch then send me lots of hand histories. Adding new sites is a simple process provided I have enough hand histories to get a good sample.

That's it! I've put a ton of work into this program and in my 16 years of programming for a living I have no doubt that this is the best piece of software I have written. I am also fully aware of and willing to take on the support load. I think my Tourney Manager customers can vouch for my ability to support and improve a product. The website and forums will be up soon and I'll post the link when they are ready. Until then, feel free to ask me any questions.

rvg

blackize 06-25-2007 10:30 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
So sick, I can't wait to get this.

Josem 06-25-2007 10:33 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
this is so hot.

tcorbin16 06-25-2007 10:41 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
this looks sexy

Evigt_Drabbad 06-25-2007 10:44 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
looks awesome, ship the man some HH´s from ongame and ipoker [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

dtan05 06-25-2007 10:51 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
this is gonna sound crazy but do I have the ability to add more HUD stats on there?

rvg72 06-25-2007 10:58 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is gonna sound crazy but do I have the ability to add more HUD stats on there?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have around 150 stats to choose from [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you look at that bar on the bottom, each of those buttons switches everyone to a different view. You can have any number of buttons on this bar and each one leads to a view with any number of stats and right click stats. You can have some stats only appear if they are above or below certain values.

It will also use sample size techniques to ensure that low sample size stats aren't misleading. You can also pro-rate stats so if you are heads up you can use the opponents HU stats at full value and his 3 handed stats at 0.5 value (or whatever).

For tourneys stats are displayed based on # BB's remaining for each player. So, a short stack might have a 45/40 VPIP/PFR while the big stack might show 10/7. You can also do this based on # players left which is good for SNG's. The same pro-rating techniques can be applied for tourneys.

There is much more but these are some of the hilights of this HUD.

rvg

_dave_ 06-25-2007 11:26 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
RVG this looks very hot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Question: Are you using standard DB format we users can run queries against?

rvg72 06-25-2007 11:32 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
RVG this looks very hot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Question: Are you using standard DB format we users can run queries against?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Dave. The DB is Postgres SQL and one of the things on my todo list is to fully document it although it isn't overly complicated. I want this program to be as plugin / add-on friendly as possible.

I think that people like you are going to have a lot of fun with the reporting functionality because you can build and share some fairly complex, creative reports with very little effort.

rvg

Split Suit 06-26-2007 02:30 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
my God...that is effing sexxy. lookin foward to tryyin it

_dave_ 06-26-2007 02:53 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]

The DB is Postgres SQL


[/ QUOTE ]

OMG dream come true [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

I think that people like you are going to have a lot of fun with the reporting functionality because you can build and share some fairly complex, creative reports with very little effort.


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

<--- Guaranteed customer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

NorthView 06-26-2007 03:48 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
Wow, great work. I can send you some iPoker hands tonight - how shall I get them to you?

Will you be able to offer a similar level of support to PT? Will the Holdem Manager forum have a dedicated area for users to share reports?

oracle3001 06-26-2007 03:52 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
This looks great. As regards the HUD, I don't know if you noticed the "free HUD release" for Full Tilt a couple of days ago. My reason for mentioning is that in my opinion the guy has it spot on regards many many aspects of that, in the stats offered, how they are offered and how they are calculated.

For example, the idea of doing a stat as following, % of an action given it there was a chance to do so. i.e. No point doing %3-bet as overall hands, rather as a % of the times somebody has alreay raised.

Also the best thing I found about that HUD was the way every action is also split into positional based stats.

Maybe you have talk to the guy, as he seems to have really thought out why people want these stats and how to provide them. It would be great if something can get out into the marketplace that supports (and will do in the future) all the sites and has these kind of positional stats, 3-bet/4-bet stats, float stat etc. PT / PAHUD have been slow to do this, and so a little competition might be exactly what this portion of the online poker software market needs.

Another thing I think is important if you could co-operate with the likes of the creators of SpadeEye and SixthSense, as game selection is all important (especially as the games get harder). If you application doesn't allow game selection tools (as mentioned above) to take your data, I think it will discourage many people who use them from swapping to your product. PT has remained the dominant application, because so many other side products can run off its DB.

If your product is to get serious market share it is going to have to offer what PT and more. I think the PO has remained in the shadows as other than the speed issue (due to being coded in Java) as none of the add-ons that PT has spawned were made PO compatible.

rvg72 06-26-2007 04:00 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, great work. I can send you some iPoker hands tonight - how shall I get them to you?

Will you be able to offer a similar level of support to PT? Will the Holdem Manager forum have a dedicated area for users to share reports?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

Please send them to Tourneymgr@gmail.com for now

I will have the forum up shortly and although Poker Tracker Pat does a great job with support, I think I score pretty good marks in that area as well. I'm the author of Tourney Manager which is used by a good chunk of the STTF forum so I've had a lot of experience supporting end users, updating the application, adding features etc before.

Thanks,

Roy

infinity235 06-26-2007 04:03 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
Yes! Can't wait for it.

rvg72 06-26-2007 04:11 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
This looks great. As regards the HUD, I don't know if you noticed the "free HUD release" for Full Tilt a couple of days ago. My reason for mentioning is that in my opinion the guy has it spot on regards many many aspects of that, in the stats offered, how they are offered and how they are calculated.

For example, the idea of doing a stat as following, % of an action given it there was a chance to do so. i.e. No point doing %3-bet as overall hands, rather as a % of the times somebody has alreay raised.

Also the best thing I found about that HUD was the way every action is also split into positional based stats.

Maybe you have talk to the guy, as he seems to have really thought out why people want these stats and how to provide them. It would be great if something can get out into the marketplace that supports (and will do in the future) all the sites and has these kind of positional stats, 3-bet/4-bet stats, float stat etc. PT / PAHUD have been slow to do this, and so a little competition might be exactly what this portion of the online poker software market needs.

Another thing I think is important if you could co-operate with the likes of the creators of SpadeEye and SixthSense, as game selection is all important (especially as the games get harder). If you application doesn't allow game selection tools (as mentioned above) to take your data, I think it will discourage many people who use them from swapping to your product. PT has remained the dominant application, because so many other side products can run off its DB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,

I actually IM'ed the guy that wrote that other tool and let him know that I think he really nailed it in terms of the stats he has used and how he had laid them out.

The answer to all of your questions is yes - stats are saved positionally and based on preceding action. So, you can see how often xyz player raises from the CO vs 2 or more limpers if you wanted to. Also, stats are all based on # times action taken / # times action was possible as you would expect.

I hope to have many 3rd party developers add support for my program. I actually use SpadeEye and we've worked together on some other cross promotional stuff with Tourney Manager and his ICM product. I haven't spoken to either him or the Sixth Sense guys about this particular project but 1) the DB is laid out in a matter that will allow them to integrate fairly easily and 2) I'd be glad to assist them in the integration.

I have a lot of respect for Poker Tracker and PA HUD and I think having another choice is better for everyone. I'll push them and they'll in turn push me into making better products so things should get interesting!

rvg

oracle3001 06-26-2007 04:39 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
Sounds like you have got a great attitude to all of this, and that you have put a lot of hard work into it. I'm am nailed on to test it out, and of course provide construction comment on the application and bugs. I would be interested in helping out the beta testing, I am in the software business and so have a decent idea what is required.

I am really excited about your product coming to market. The whole area of analysis tools has stagnated over the past year or so, and now with this and the PokerEV stuff there is real potential for some serious improvement in the areas many of us serious players have been wanting for quite a while e.g. speed of import, positional based stats, 3/4 betting.

TheIrishThug 06-26-2007 07:01 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
This looks awesome. Can't wait to try it out.

K䲰䮥n 06-26-2007 07:09 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
RVG, an important question:

The poker sites are doing updates to their software on a regular basis. From time to time your HUD wont be able to display the stats or there's something else wrong with HoldemManager.

Will you have the time (and the effort) to constantly update the software and to provide reasonable tech support? Will you be adding new features on a regular basis?

herbstl 06-26-2007 07:15 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
sounds great - if that software supports iPoker I am an guaranteed customer !

If you need tons of iPoker HH's PM me.

oracle3001 06-26-2007 07:17 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
I think this is a critical point, as the guys behind PT and PAHUD say that because their products are so widely used it is basically a full time job just doing the fixes and replying to people problems. Thus they they don't have very much time for any further development.

GSykes 06-26-2007 08:20 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
How much is this going to cost?

tpa 06-26-2007 09:18 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
If the HUD comes out with iPoker support before PokerAce implements it, you'll have a customer.

Looking dead sexy to me, too

runstop 06-26-2007 09:45 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 

Uh, rvg.. this is amazing. I cannot wait to try this. And write my own reports! wow.

Mr_Snood 06-26-2007 10:25 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]

I hope to have many 3rd party developers add support for my program. I actually use SpadeEye and we've worked together on some other cross promotional stuff with Tourney Manager and his ICM product. I haven't spoken to either him or the Sixth Sense guys about this particular project but 1) the DB is laid out in a matter that will allow them to integrate fairly easily and 2) I'd be glad to assist them in the integration.


[/ QUOTE ]

Simply amazing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
Seems we have a modern successor for PT and PA.

Of course i will add support for Holdem Manager into SpadeEye.

rvg72 06-26-2007 11:46 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
RVG, an important question:

The poker sites are doing updates to their software on a regular basis. From time to time your HUD wont be able to display the stats or there's something else wrong with HoldemManager.

Will you have the time (and the effort) to constantly update the software and to provide reasonable tech support? Will you be adding new features on a regular basis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Karpanen,

I beieve you are a tourney manager customer so you should have first hand knowledge that I am very committed to fixing hand history changes the same day! I'm very committed to this project and fully understand the amount of ongoing work that is going to be required to maintain, support and improve it.

I've basically worked every night and every weekend on this program since September and spent about $2,500 in software licensing / website etc so I will definately make the time and effort!

Thanks,

rvg

HoRRoR 06-26-2007 11:48 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
awesome roy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

rvg72 06-26-2007 11:57 AM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
Just to show you what I meant about import speeds not trailing off as database sizes get huge - this is the same database that I posted the first screen shot from and before this latest import had about 3.5 million hands. As you can see I'm well into another 1.7 million hand import and speeds are still at 29.0 hands per second which is just 0.4 hands per second less than they were a couple of million hands ago. Also, I'm using a 2 year old 2 ghz machine!

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/hm/importtab2.jpg

rvg

aflaba 06-26-2007 12:37 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]

Thanks Dave. The DB is Postgres SQL and one of the things on my todo list is to fully document it although it isn't overly complicated. I want this program to be as plugin / add-on friendly as possible.

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so looking forward to this. Please tomorrow! I feel like Cartman with Nintendo Wii

advis0r 06-26-2007 12:51 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
looks pretty nice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

can you post the sql used to create the db-tables (since u plan to document it anyway later)?

will be useful/interesting in ordner see how u designed it and what kind of queries one will be able to use.

jukofyork 06-26-2007 01:01 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just to show you what I meant about import speeds not trailing off as database sizes get huge - this is the same database that I posted the first screen shot from and before this latest import had about 3.5 million hands. As you can see I'm well into another 1.7 million hand import and speeds are still at 29.0 hands per second which is just 0.4 hands per second less than they were a couple of million hands ago. Also, I'm using a 2 year old 2 ghz machine!

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/hm/importtab2.jpg

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]
Very much looking forward to this! Not having to wait crazy amounts of time to import hands alone will be a huge improvement and all the extra features look like it's gonna truly be the "next generation" of PT and PAHUD. Great work!

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

rvg72 06-26-2007 01:52 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
looks pretty nice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

can you post the sql used to create the db-tables (since u plan to document it anyway later)?

will be useful/interesting in ordner see how u designed it and what kind of queries one will be able to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, can't provide this until the public beta - the fields in the tables would give away too much functionality to potential competitors at this point.

I can give you a rough idea of table structure though

PokerHands table: describes a single hand

Players table: describes a single player

PlayerHands tables: 1 row per player per hand

CompiledResults: merged stats from players. Each player will have many rows in this table - for example, a player will have merged stats with multiple rows for 2 handed, 3 handed, 4 handed etc
HandHistories: every hand history in original format and in HMSF xml format.

There are a bunch of other lookup tables and secondary tables but these are the main ones.

rvg

rvg72 06-26-2007 07:33 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
The forum is up:
Holdem Manager Forum

and the "web site"
Holdem Manager Website

rvg

halsted 06-26-2007 09:36 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
any chance of adding prima/microgaming? I dont think they have hand histories tho...

Unabridged 06-26-2007 10:24 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
I want this program to be as plugin / add-on friendly as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

this looks great, i cannot wait to try it.

Unabridged 06-26-2007 10:29 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
can this filter hands like:
3 people see flop, im in 2nd position

rvg72 06-26-2007 10:33 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
can this filter hands like:
3 people see flop, im in 2nd position

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, you can filter much, much deeper than this (ie 3 people see flop when you 3 bet preflop and you have flopped 2 overcards and a nut flush draw and you are in position) but yes, you can do basic filters like the one you mentioned as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

rvg

rvg72 06-26-2007 10:36 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
any chance of adding prima/microgaming? I dont think they have hand histories tho...

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a hand history I can't add any support [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Anyone have any info on this site?

rvg

_dave_ 06-26-2007 11:37 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]

you can filter much, much deeper than this (ie 3 people see flop when you 3 bet preflop and you have flopped 2 overcards and a nut flush draw and you are in position) but yes, you can do basic filters like the one you mentioned as well


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

_dave_ 06-26-2007 11:40 PM

Re: New Software: Holdem Manager
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any chance of adding prima/microgaming? I dont think they have hand histories tho...

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a hand history I can't add any support [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Anyone have any info on this site?

rvg

[/ QUOTE ]

Prima/Microgaming are the opposite of this information [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

They write full HHF for observed hands in addition to played hands. I think they do not included mucked hands (of players in position) in accordance with casino rules.

You do need an account & be logged in to observe tables though.

I can send you a stack of observed HH if need be, although I'm sure someone who plays there would be a better option.

dave.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.