bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

earlier this afternoon: i'm stuck huge, so i've been raising pf a lot trying to build pots. villain in the hand bought in for about 3k and has run it up to over 14k (i have right around the same, maybe i cover by a bit) by hitting some monster hands. he limp-calls everything preflop, but seems to play pretty decent postflop: he bets strong with his big hands, has been getting paid off and has generally shown down the goods.

anyway, he limps in early, i raise from the hijack to 120 with Js7s, bb calls and villain calls. i flop the stone nuts: Jd Jh 7d.

they check to me, i bet about half-pot, 180. bb folds, villain calls. turn is an os 8. he checks, i bet 340, he throws in a 1k chip while saying, "raise." i think for a bit and reraise 1500 more.

he asks me how much i have behind, i tell him about 11 or 12k more. he starts counting his stack of bills, but doesn't stop at 15: he counts out 50 bills, puts them into the pot and says, "five thousand."

he has about 7 or 8k remaining after his 4bet of 3500 more. what's my play here?

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

fold, and then quit poker for life.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

i mean srsly, i just got home and this post made my head explode.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

I think this is 77/88 almost always, so I would just call and trap him here I think, with plans on snap calling his river shove.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

OMG Are you serious? Easiest push ever. If he has ace Jack here and sucks out on the river, Oh well. No way I'm ever folding this. You have a dream flop with the board dominated. He could also have 77 which you crush. Is this a serious post?

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

call and snapcall river, or just shove, either one is fine. there really is no river i am ever folding to either. this looks like a BBV post under the "brag" section

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Yeah honestly I don't get this post, and I try to not be naive when respected players post hands like this, but I don't see how you can make a reasonable case for anything but shoving. 77/88 alone have to make up a lot of his range, let alone some Jx hands he could have that he thinks are the nuts, specifically AJ. He could have turned his gutshot with a flopped flush draw.

Just did this on pokerstove, which is including no possibilites of a straight or trips, just boats.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

396 games 0.005 secs 79,200 games/sec

Board: Jd 7d Jh 8s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.556% 43.69% 11.87% 173 47.00 { Js7s }
Hand 1: 44.444% 32.58% 11.87% 129 47.00 { 88-77, J8s-J7s, J8o-J7o }

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

J8 is the only hand that beats you if I am reading this correctly. is he loose enough to limp-call in EP with J8o? idk, that's really bad. J8s is bad too obv but a lot more likely which limits him to fewer combinations of this.

clearly get the money in and if he shows you that hand, just go vinny vihn status for a week or two and you'll be back to winning poker as soon as you return

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

call and get it in on river. i dont want him having any chance to get away from second best hands, and there arent really scare cards so you can take your time.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

I don't think it's as clear-cut as everyone seems to be saying; who the [censored] plays AJ or 77 like this? On the flop, if I were him I would be like 'I'll try to build a pot now, because the hand that's most likely to pay me off is a (weaker) jack. If any eight or higher comes off, either he improves his hand to beat me, or he has one more hand to worry about and is less likely to give me action'. J8 OTOH seems like a go for pot control on the flop type of hand.

Of course, he could have eights as well, and/or just be retarded (I didn't / don't know exactly how to do the math, but even eights probably is an iffy four-bet). Assuming of course you didn't have an extensive bluffing history vs. each other.

Rereading the OP 'bets strong with big hands' only enforces the notion in my mind that he should have been more aggro on the flop with hands that you beat.

In the end, though, I'd probably still push and hope he has 88 and thinks you got married to your AJ. I think the quicker the pace of your little raising war, the better for you. I mean I'm sure he's no dummy but you did say he limp-calls every hand. As you know it's 50-50, so the only assumption you need is that he'd play 88 this way. It would definitely help if you've seen him check-call mid pair-ish hands on the flop before, and underestimate the significance of one more raise/reraise.

Whatever you do, you can't just call, though - any 7 or higher is a bad river card for you and the rest doesn't change anything.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
call and get it in on river. i dont want him having any chance to get away from second best hands, and there arent really scare cards so you can take your time.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is calling a 4bet and getting it in on the river weaker than getting it in now?

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

The more I think about it, the more I think 88 should play that turn aggressively, for the same reason I think 77 should play the flop aggressively. He should be happier to get it in now than on the river - even if only an Ace is a scare card for him, that's still an unnecessary risk, to say nothing of the possibility that you are now beat, he shoves but wouldn't have called another bet without the boat.

Meh I'm drunk and I'm rambling, time to sleep, hope you get the point and hope it makes sense.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

if the plan was to fold to a 4bet here, there is no point in 3betting with this hand, fwiw

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

This is the kind of ridiculous crap that makes me glad online is capped buyin at 100bb. I don't want to flop top full and have to be worried about what to do when faced with a turn 4-bet. I mean, seriously, how the heck do you guys play 700bb deep? It doesn't even seem like the same game.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of ridiculous crap that makes me glad online is capped buyin at 100bb. I don't want to flop top full and have to be worried about what to do when faced with a turn 4-bet. I mean, seriously, how the heck do you guys play 700bb deep? It doesn't even seem like the same game.

[/ QUOTE ]

trust me, playing 500 bbs+ deep is pretty awesome on a table like the bellagio 10/20, esp when theres persians or italians around

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

why is a jack not a scare card for 77/88???

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

as others have mentioned i think this is 77/88 maybe AJ/KJ ,although the latter 2 are less likely. i push the turn so he cant get away on the river.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of ridiculous crap that makes me glad online is capped buyin at 100bb. I don't want to flop top full and have to be worried about what to do when faced with a turn 4-bet. I mean, seriously, how the heck do you guys play 700bb deep? It doesn't even seem like the same game.

[/ QUOTE ]

trust me, playing 500 bbs+ deep is pretty awesome on a table like the bellagio 10/20, esp when theres live players around

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

spend a lot of time counting your stack, looking at what is in the pot, counting your stack again, mumbling to yourself, calculating

and then push

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

arrrr inn.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

im in the call and get it in on river club.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Hi mike,

This is 88 so often. If it's J8, gg. You are (or at least appear to be) tilting, so he's not thinking for a second that the underfull's no good, no matter what you do. This is never a straight, though, as someone said. He has a boat for sure, and 88 or 77 are just the most likely culprits for strategic (more likely to call pre with them than with J8) and mathematical (1 combo of J8s, 4 of 88/77) reasons.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
im in the call and get it in on river club.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why. Don't you think the player described is always full here? Do you think there's any way he could fold a boat with this much in to a guy stuck real bad? I don't. I don't want to risk an 8 or J coming off and him folding 7s full.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

hmmm yeah good point cero. i was just thinkin like maybe he will fold 88 77 here since he is 700 bbs deep? i guess since he sucks and thinks mike is tilting that he will snap call off. blah i have no experience live though so my opinion is far less than most ppls.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

mike,

congrats on winning the 28k pot. sucks to be the other guy. must have sucked for him when you pushed all in on the turn and he called with 88

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

from the description of the guy it seems like he is quite competent postflop so he's always full here and it's always the big full or 88.

Plus he said the guy ran it from 3k to 14k. I'm not sure how much he thought you were tilting to get your dough back or if the guy seemed like he's never had 10K+ in front of him before. But someone running it from 3k to 14k is probably not putting in all this with 77. He's got one of the big fulls or as everyone else says 88. More like the big full

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Assuming Mike [or your typical live player] is stuck, do you fold to a shove here with 88?

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

yes, I'm going to say that this is 98% big full and 88 isn't even that much of a thought. Unless he thinks Mike is stupid I can't imagine anybody but a moron getting 700bb in with the underfull calling or pushing. Where's the sklansky post on the nuts/bb

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

i'm not a big fan of your bet sizing

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not a big fan of your bet sizing

[/ QUOTE ]

If OP's been raising a lot presumably he's been half-potting a lot on the flop as well

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of ridiculous crap that makes me glad online is capped buyin at 100bb. I don't want to flop top full and have to be worried about what to do when faced with a turn 4-bet. I mean, seriously, how the heck do you guys play 700bb deep? It doesn't even seem like the same game.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thinking about it from OP's position, it sucks. Second nuts facing a huge decision, but conversely think about having the dead nuts and your opponent holding a huge hand that he doesnt want to lay down and having 700 BB's to start the hand. Playing that deep at Bellagio definitely favors aggressive players, and what I've noticed at the B is when the 10/20 is playing ultra deep, say, 3 or 4 players over $10,000, there's inevitably someone at the table who is way out of his league sitting with that much behind because he thinks he needs to be able to play a big pot in case.

I've never been this deep in NLHE, but I've been almost 700 BB's behind in PLO, and that game was sick with two blinds and at least one straddle. It's fun. Try it.



-Tex

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

fwiw, folding never crossed my mind. my decision was between shoving the turn or just calling here then calling river. i mean, i was either drawing dead, or i had him drawing near dead, so pushing the turn seems unnecessary, no?

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

fwiw, folding never crossed my mind. my decision was between shoving the turn or just calling here then calling river. i mean, i was either drawing dead, or i had him drawing near dead, so pushing the turn seems unnecessary, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but you dont want something like an A,K or J popping up and killing action. Id be very surprised if he can get away from 88,77 here if you shove

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

he'll just put you on AJ if you shove the turn and call with any boat, so just get it in before river kills your action. and reraise more than 1.5K on top, wtf.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Didn't you say he plays his good hands really fast? So if he had trips on flop wouldn't he put in a raise? IF so he could likely have 88 here.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

fwiw, folding never crossed my mind. my decision was between shoving the turn or just calling here then calling river. i mean, i was either drawing dead, or i had him drawing near dead, so pushing the turn seems unnecessary, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, i dont understand how you cant push the turn. Alot of facecards should face the villain because he's putting you on AK- J10, and possibly 77. I shove here because the villain is never folding his hand, and if he did fold..hurt him.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

when i first read OP i thought he was looking for a reason to fold

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes, I'm going to say that this is 98% big full and 88 isn't even that much of a thought. Unless he thinks Mike is stupid I can't imagine anybody but a moron getting 700bb in with the underfull calling or pushing. Where's the sklansky post on the nuts/bb

[/ QUOTE ]

i lol'd.


edit:hmmmm, i thought he was leveling, but now im not so sure. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Ditto.

Mike, I like shoving because there are some action killers for our hand, although not many. This guy has showed that he loves his hand a lot, and I doubt he would even consider folding any full house here, especially with your aggressive / tilty image. There's also the slim chance that he is overplaying a straight, in which case there are a lot of scare cards.

In any event, I like shoving now.

Re: bellagio 10-20 700bb deep: 2nd-nut boat facing 4-bet
 

Yeah what everyone else said, given that you're not gonna fold calling as opposed to shoving should not even be a consideration. There is no card that could come off that would put you in a more favorable situation than you are now.

The only thing going for you is that calling is weaker, but given that it's the third raise by now, that really doesn't matter anymore. If anything, it takes away the possibility that you're on some retarded steal/resteal war.