25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

villain is 48/4.4/2 over 80 hands
he has been limping a lot, no other reads

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($74.80)</font>
MP ($29.65)
CO ($76.15)
Button ($27.60)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($74.10)</font>
BB ($46.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, MP calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls $0.90, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($3.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.2</font>, MP folds, SB calls $2.20.

Turn: ($7.65) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $10</font>

i would like to know what you guys think is the best way to handle this when we are this deep

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

It sucks, but I call and let him take control of the hand. Even though Villain's play looks trappy, he may be aware of that, and he also could be "trapping" with a worse king on this board. I'm not folding for just another $5.

If he follows up with a river bomb, then you're going to be in a difficult spot, but I'm pretty sure I would call anything up to a pot-sized bet. Villain's postflop stats are not exactly station-ish given his preflop looseness and preflop passivity.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

as of so far I don't think this was played badly at all although if he steals from you a lot postflop you may want to consider checking flop as a turn card is VERY unlikely to hurt your hand. as played call turn and re eval on river. 2 is a pretty neutral post flop aggression, so I would be inclined to call most river bets and hope he shows kq or kj.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

normally I would just fold without reads, the fact thet we are in position might make me call but it might be a leak. We can't call a reasonable river bet so we would be calling in hopes villain checks river or to hit a K. Neither is going to happen often enough for the call to be profitable imo.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

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It sucks, but I call and let him take control of the hand.

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cool this is what I had in mind once he checkraised me. I was concerned that this would be too passive, as I would probably shove if I only had 100bb. I figured it would be best to call a med sized river bet after calling turn

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I'm not folding for just another $5.

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agree. lets say he pops it to 15 or 20. is this still a call/re-eval river scenario?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

if he makes it $15 or $20 to go I likely swallow my pride and fold. Given his looseness he would def show up with a3, k3s, or 77 often enough to fold to a raise this big with deep stacks. but since it's a min raise, it's far more likely he might have kq or kj and that's why I call.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

Call turn and anything up to PSB on river IMO. Do not raise. I'll play 125-150bb pot with TPTK against this dude. There is a very good chance he does have a three but probably does same thing with Kx. Who knows. Don't call some overbet though.

edit: I'd like it better if he raised the flop TBH. Turn is more in line with a three...

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not folding for just another $5.

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agree. lets say he pops it to 15 or 20. is this still a call/re-eval river scenario?

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It's a tough spot. I mean, folding a hand as strong as AK to a turn checkraise seems exploitable as hell. If we're folding that, what the hell could we have that we're calling with? Just KK, 77, and quad 3's, I guess.

Then again, turn checkraising exclusively with monster hands is also theoretically exploitable, which is why we're considering folding.

To be honest, though, at the table I probably call the turn checkraise to $15-20, with the plan of seeing how much Villain bets on the river. I mean, that paired card on the board is just so low . . .

The problem is, though, Villain will usually either bet big on the river and get me to fold, meaning I've paid off a big turn checkraise without even getting to see his hand, or he'll bet $15-20 or so again and I'll pay off his K7o [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

So folding to a big turn checkraise might be the play.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I've played a villain with similar stats once. Replace the K on the board with an A.

Same exact action, pretty much identical bet sizes, and 250BBs deep instead of 300BBs.

I called, he bet 50% on the river and turned over A7 (in your case K7).

Obviously we're talking about 2 different hands and a different villain (most likely heh), but I don't think it's impossible for to him to have K7 here. His VPIP is nearly 50.

I don't think AK is good here, but I'll repeat what Nick said. Wtf are we calling with then if we fold AK here?

I really don't like this spot when you're this deep because very little went into the pot preflop and on the flop compared to the turn/river.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I would check turn here sometimes vs villan that is likely to also bluff/mnraise paired flops/turns.

If I was thinking and not just auto-betthe turn given the flop texture. As played given how deep we are I call the turn minraise getting 4 to 1ish ( for an ace/king and he may have worse) and c/f river a fair amount if he bets decent.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I hink this villain is not bluff checkraising here. He might be stupid enough to c/r with KQ or something but the chances of this are slim, most of the time he would just call with a worse king here

isn't this almost a Baluga theorem type of a situation? Yeah the board is paired so it's not Baluga but it's similar imo.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

raise more pf OOP..make it atleast 1.25 and bet the flop bigger..you guys that are saying hes prbably beat, what do you put villian on?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I think that this is pretty much baluga - but I still call here - you have position and really great odds, but I think it has to be an easy fold to a large river bet, though you can decide to call a smallish one...

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

what do you guys think hes beat by?!?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

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what do you guys think hes beat by?!?

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If he's beat, K7, 77, or some suited and/or connecting 3x.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I call.. and am willing to call a reasonable bet on river, he has to have a 3 or 77 K7 to be beating us, but i'm a sissy 300 bb deep

Bet river yourself if he checks to you.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

this looks like a 3 more than anything. A 48% VPIP can have X3s, or any ofssuit connector/semiconnector

he is OOP but he is a loose donk and 2 people are allready in the pot when it gets to him

if we are beat we probably only have 2 outs and even though we are deep, we have no implied odds whatsoever a K on the river will be too transparent

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

grunch. so really the only hand we can put him on that beats us is 77,AA or *maybe* some 3x combos (edit: and K7). he could be frisky with a number of Kx combos on such a dry flop.

with 100bbs i think this is a call and stack off situation since you'll be getting great pot odds (better than 3-1) on the river.

deeper, i'm not really sure. i think villain has to check hands we beat more often because of the raising threat we pose (if he's thinking about it), and he's more likely to bet bigger if he bets with strength, giving us worse pot odds. i think the chances of s bluff are slim. so that seems clear cut - we can call to make a call/fold decision on the river.

what i'm basically saying is i think there is little to no RIO here, so we can just go with juicy immediate odds (4-1) and hopefully show down the best hand.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

Against a range of KK+,K3,K7,33,77,AK,KQ,KJ we still have 45% equity. Although of course a large part from this equity comes from KQ,KJ. Removing them from the range gives an equity of 16%. (Where 10% comes from including AK for a split). But even with only KQ we still have 30% equity, enough to call his minraise.

So only in the most pessimistic scenario (for us) his raise his large enough to deny us to odds to call. Being a little more optimistic and iven that we have position, I am inclined to call here and call any river bet up to half the pot.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a range of KK+,K3,K7,33,77,AK,KQ,KJ we still have 45% equity. Although of course a large part from this equity comes from KQ,KJ. Removing them from the range gives an equity of 16%. (Where 10% comes from including AK for a split). But even with only KQ we still have 30% equity, enough to call his minraise.

So only in the most pessimistic scenario (for us) his raise his large enough to deny us to odds to call. Being a little more optimistic and iven that we have position, I am inclined to call here and call any river bet up to half the pot.

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I am not sure I understand this right. This means it's ok to call. Does this mean we can also call a river bet UI? Or are we just calling to catch a K or A?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I would call any river that's less than $20. Above that and I strongly consider folding. He's definitely not bluffing, but an aggression factor of 2 means he is capable of doing this with worse kings.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

Why are we folding this hand? I call turn, and see what he does on the river. Only hands I'm putting this guy on that beats us is A3 or 77. Do any of you guys put him on KQ? While it is deep, I would still play cautious and will call a river bet of 15-20 here. I seriously think you're losing way too much value out of this by folding.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a range of KK+,K3,K7,33,77,AK,KQ,KJ we still have 45% equity. Although of course a large part from this equity comes from KQ,KJ. Removing them from the range gives an equity of 16%. (Where 10% comes from including AK for a split). But even with only KQ we still have 30% equity, enough to call his minraise.

So only in the most pessimistic scenario (for us) his raise his large enough to deny us to odds to call. Being a little more optimistic and iven that we have position, I am inclined to call here and call any river bet up to half the pot.

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I am not sure I understand this right. This means it's ok to call. Does this mean we can also call a river bet UI? Or are we just calling to catch a K or A?

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I think you need to be be almost drawing dead before you can fold to his minraise. You are getting great odds and you have a decent hand. By calling you are saying: I am not folding to any minraise, show me what you have on the river. You also say you are still quite sure of your hand, so he will probably fire big with the hands that crush you and check or fire small (&lt;0.5 psb) with KJ and KQ. That's why I am calling small bets UI and folding to large bets.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

There's no way you can fold to that tiny raise.

Your are IP on river.

Pot will be $27 on river.

I'd prob call around $20 or so.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I aggree. Any King is in his PF range including K7.

His range is wide enough and his stats aggressive enough post flop that I would consider a fold to be bad here.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

What do you guys think about a turn check? It gets you paid off by weaker hands when you (or villain) bet river and loses less when you're behind.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you guys think about a turn check? It gets you paid off by weaker hands when you (or villain) bet river and loses less when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems reasonable on this specific board.

If he checks the river, you can bet and effortlessly call a min raise.
If he bets the river (normal size), you can still call.

Get some value when you win and lose the least you can when you're behind.

Only problem I see is that you can't narrow villain's range with a check on the turn. I don't think it's a big issue generally though. It's only a problem when he C/Rs you really big on the river.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

results/river action?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

Some intersting discussion here, pretty much confirmed how I felt that it should be played. As played, my opponent was quite weak and allowed me to call both turn and river. I thought about posting the river as A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but decided my action would have been the same regardless. Had he value bet the river properly I probably would've folded.

I don't think I like a turn check here, he is too loose and will call value bets all the way with KX.

Turn: ($7.65) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $10</font>, Hero calls $5.

River: ($27.65) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $10.5</font>, Hero calls $10.50.


Final Pot: $48.65

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 3s 6s (three of a kind, threes).
Hero has Ac Kh (two pair, kings and threes).
Outcome: SB wins $48.65. </font>

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

If the flop would be K73 rainbow and this was a pure Baluga theorem situation does it change the calling turn to folding turn? Is the fact that there are more 2 pairs (as wicked as they would be) and more sets possible enough to change the decision? Or am I just applying Baluga theorem too religiously?

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

I'm posting at work on my phone, but the mistake on this hand was not checking behind on the turn.

I'll post more when I get home in 6 hours. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm posting at work on my phone, but the mistake on this hand was not checking behind on the turn.

I'll post more when I get home in 6 hours. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I check behind on the turn.

You are WA/WB and if you play this hand for a lot of BBs you are probably behind to a lucky 3 or a K7/77 that got very lucky.

Your hand can't stand a lot of heat on this board so I'd use my superior position and exercise pot control. I'd then call a psb on any river or bet if checked to. If I got C/r on the river I'd fold.

I think villain could have a worse K, trips, a mid pp, or some weird 2p and I think he might bet his weaker hands if we show weakness on the turn. I think betting the turn folds out weak hands that called a flop bet b/c they didn't think you had it and leaves only the strongest of the weak K and the hands that beat you.

So I'd check the turn for the above reasons.

As played:

Unless this guys made a habit of check raising/check minraising the turn; he's not doing this with any hand you beat. One pair is no good here; he either has a 3, a floated 77; or (not likely) K7. KQ doesn't do this; I give him credit and let him win a medium size pot.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

To the players that say "check behind turn" - I bet the turn for value against this player.
Not betting there is losing too much value IMO, and a little bit results oriented.

Re: 25NL AK hand 300bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
To the players that say "check behind turn" - I bet the turn for value against this player.
Not betting there is losing too much value IMO, and a little bit results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

villain's stats are terrible but the stats we have here do not say anything about him being a calling station so I am not sure what you base your read on

If he has a high call turn % then it's ok to bet turn for value, he could call with a worse K or even with a lower pair

I am not sure if I'd be happy with a turn reraise from him though as that usually means a hand that beats us