I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

These two hands are incredibly standard right?

Villian is pipo4 who is 35/16. After this hand I realized how much he sucks...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($368.40)
CO ($549)
Button ($421.65)
SB ($341.70)
BB ($393.30)
wpr101 ($409.15)

Preflop: wpr101 is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">wpr101 raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">wpr101 bets $24</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">wpr101 raises to $200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $379.3</font>, wpr101 calls $179.30.



Villian here is ty mutts who I have at 31/14 over 65 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($400)
MP ($475)
CO ($119)
Button ($322)
SB ($529.20)
BB ($534.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls $12, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($42) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $24</font>, BB calls $24, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $81</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $515.2</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $305 (All-In).

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I think these 2 hands are hard to go wrong with. You can just call the raise on hand 1 if you like since you have position, or play it the way you did, either seems fine. hand 2, another hand you can just call the bet or pop it, looks like he has 66, but thats the worst case and your still live. Well played

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I think these are both very badly played despite being 'standard'.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think these are both very badly played despite being 'standard'.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol cool. how about filling us in with what your line would be.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

Call the c/r in hand 1, overcall the flop in hand 2. And once you raise hand 2 and he pushes, all you have is a bare flush draw, potentially missing two diamonds. Fold. Which is why you shouldn't be raising in the first place.

Edit: Here's a hand I played today which illustrates why I think these hands are not well played. I raise A4hh in the CO, get called only in the BB (unknown). I bet a JhTx8h flop and call a small c/r. Turn brings the 4h and he bets around half-to-two-thirds pot. I push for 1.5x pot. He snap calls T8.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: Here's a hand I played today which illustrates why I think these hands are not well played. I raise A4hh in the CO, get called only in the BB (unknown). I bet a JhTx8h flop and call a small c/r. Turn brings the 4h and he bets around half-to-two-thirds pot. I push for 1.5x pot. He snap calls T8.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot. And in this hand the board is extremly draw heavy to begin with. I can just as easily come up with an example where playing fast would have been better. Same board but villian now has 6h7h. Villian check raises flop and you call. Turn and river are blanks and it goes check check. Wouldn't you have much rather gotten in when he was drawing to 4 outs and committed. I'm not saying you played the hand wrong. It just doesn't make sense to give one abitrarly results oriented example and then say this is why.

Btw, doesn't standard imply that it is generally the most straight forward and best way to play hand against most opponents? Also, I think your word choice is horrible. There is no way that both of these hands are played " very badly".

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I think you're missing my point. Let me try to be clearer. And I know that this post will be disagreed with by most people. That's why I said your lines were 'standard' - because most people agree you should play hands like that. But I disagree.

In any case, what if we took these assumptions:

1. Your hand never (or very rarely) has the best showdown value if all of the money goes in on the flop.
2. Your equity decreases significantly if you do not improve on the turn.
3. If you do improve to the winning hand on the turn, your opponents will still not fold their losing hand.

If these assumptions are all true, then your lines are not good. My hand was meant to be a data point indicating that these three assumptions might very well be true.

Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

It's much better to take lines like this with midpair or maybe tpnk + the flush draw imo. You are pretty much negating the value of your top pair and just turning it into a probable 5 extra outs when you get called. I'd take the same line as TWP is advocating. We're not really worried about free cards too much since we are usually way ahead/slightly behind.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you disagree with the following statement? In this exact hand you lose a sizable pot on the turn 80% of the time when you call the check raise knowing that villian always pots the turn and that you are folding to that bet.

You don't even read what I'm writing before spouting off your talking points. How in any way was I suggesting you hit the turn more often when you push the flop? You give an incredibly biased example where something happens 20% of the time in your hand and expect me to have an ephipany that the standard play is wrong?

It is clear that we save money if we do not get allin and we miss; that is obvious. I was just giving a counter point to your ridiculous example.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's much better to take lines like this with midpair or maybe tpnk + the flush draw imo. You are pretty much negating the value of your top pair and just turning it into a probable 5 extra outs when you get called. I'd take the same line as TWP is advocating. We're not really worried about free cards too much since we are usually way ahead/slightly behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly realize just calling is a good option.

I have a problem whensomeone says that playing tp + nut flush draw + fold equity allin (see 2nd hand) is very bad.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

It's not very bad obviously, its just there is a better line to take imo.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I completely agree TWP, though I think your example hand is a little different since you don't have any showdown value.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

Is nobody taking into account that both of these players had somewhat fishy stats in the 35/15ish range. Does that make us less or more eager to get AI? serious question.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

For reasons stated by several above I think TP+FD is the best big draw to play passively, within the context of wanting an overall metagame where you often play big draws fast.

I don't hate these hands though. Thing is, even though it's hard to hate these hands, because basically any action but folding is going to be +EV on the flop, the difference between the best line and another profitable line when you flop great can be as significant as the difference between a profitable and unprofitable line in other situations. This seems obvious but it can be too easy to dismiss thinking about hands like these with "it doesn't matter what you do," when it does.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is nobody taking into account that both of these players had somewhat fishy stats in the 35/15ish range. Does that make us less or more eager to get AI? serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's fine to get it all in, there are better lines that stack worse hands more often though.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I think it's necessary to play these hands fast on the flop most of the time because

a) to balance out with times you have set/2pair.
b) folding on blank turn sucks [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
c) it's not rare to see a worse combo draw shove like that esp oop.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Edit: Also, your first line "This hand doesn't really prove your point because if you missed the turn which happens 80% of the time you would lose a decent size pot." could not possibly be more backwards. Unless you're suggesting that I would hit the turn more often by getting the money in on the flop? I'm not making winning the hand any more likely by getting the money in on the flop. I still miss the turn 80% of the time, obviously. But if I don't push the flop, then I can fold the turn and save myself some dough when I miss!

[/ QUOTE ]

So you disagree with the following statement? In this exact hand you lose a sizable pot on the turn 80% of the time when you call the check raise knowing that villian always pots the turn and that you are folding to that bet.

You don't even read what I'm writing before spouting off your talking points.

[/ QUOTE ]
Look. I tried twice to clearly explain to you why your thinking was wrong. If you think I'm just 'spouting off', fine. Keep taking this line and keep getting stacked by donks who can't fold KJ when you have KT + flush draw.

As for your 'lose a sizeable pot 80%' argument, why don't you ask yourself what the alternative is? With my line, I call the flop and fold a blank turn if he pushes, since I don't have odds to call. In your line, you get it all in on the flop. Why don't you explain to me how your line is any better than my line, but just CALLING on the turn (chasing your draw with incorrect odds)? Seems like it would be exactly the same, except in my line I can make the +EV fold instead of making your -EV call (in essence).

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

OK I'm not going to even read anymore of what TWP wrote becuase all I read in this was "these are not good despite being standard."

I will assure you, however, that these are good and standard.

End thread.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I really hate your all in call in hand 2. This is a set almost every time.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK I'm not going to even read anymore of what TWP wrote becuase all I read in this was "these are not good despite being standard."

I will assure you, however, that these are good and standard.

End thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should have kept reading. I already made this stupid post for you.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree TWP

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

normally hand 1 is A+ in my book but i played against this guy today and he is not folding aj-ak against anyone, which are both fairly likely imo. he could also have two pair. a7 and below will probably fold so i'd have just called his flop raise. (generally i like 3betting more though)

hand 2 why would you raise? you're not folding out better hands, worse hands rarely call, your hand doesn't need protecting, and you risk chasing away hands that you can stack later, like QJ if a diamond makes your flush and their straight, or a lower flush draw. also if youre worried about getting value from worse hands or something you can always get it later in the hand...

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

No one who check/raises AJ-AK here is ever folding it later in the hand. So you really don't need to have any read on the guy, you just have to know that IF he played those hands like this so far, he will not fold them now, so there is no reason to re-raise.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

i don't agree with that at all

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

why not? based on what do you have a belief that people will c/r those hands on the flop and then fold them later in the hand? my belief is based on hundreds of hands where people have check/raised top pair hands on the flop and then felted them so I have gotten to see their cheese at showdown...

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

i just think that a lot of kinda loose/kinda bad players will c/r there to "find out where they're at" or whatever. it just depends on the player and how loose he is post but there seem to be a lot of weakish players at these stakes who will do it just to talk themselves into a fold. it is pretty easy to rep two pair/set here after all.

like i said this guy isnt doing that but i can think of about 10-15 that i played with just in the past couple of hours that would play their hand like that. also wpr usually has a tight image in my experience with him, so that definitely works in his favor.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree TWP

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

hand 2 i wouldn't worry about. he can have Axd, 78d, 98d, J9d, KT for this to be a snap call

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree TWP

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

But I think hand 2 is a lot better than hand 1, in fact I think it's probably about similar EV compared to flatcalling.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like it would be exactly the same, except in my line I can make the +EV fold instead of making your -EV call (in essence).

[/ QUOTE ]
well, a fold can never be +EV. a fold is 0 EV. however if your options are a -EV call or a 0 EV fold, clearly folding is the superior play.
:P

also, i agree about the AT hand, but i dont think im folding ever. i call and get it in on the turn if i have to do.

KQ looks fine, overcall is an option. if you had AKd you must overcall there, though.

also, someone may have said villain has 66 always in hand 2 when they bet 3bet? LOL. snap call, of course.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For reasons stated by several above I think TP+FD is the best big draw to play passively, within the context of wanting an overall metagame where you often play big draws fast.

I don't hate these hands though. Thing is, even though it's hard to hate these hands, because basically any action but folding is going to be +EV on the flop, the difference between the best line and another profitable line when you flop great can be as significant as the difference between a profitable and unprofitable line in other situations. This seems obvious but it can be too easy to dismiss thinking about hands like these with "it doesn't matter what you do," when it does.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that first sentence. It probably makes it harder to play against me if I do play passive on some big hands.

The thinking that it doesn't matter what you do here originates from threads sort of like this one where maybe 60% of the people say just call and 40% of the people say I played them fine. Everybody has such a strong opinion on the issue and plus the fact that you know there are good players who are on either side of the argument. From reading this thread you could say that Aejones thinks my play was good and TWP thinks another option is much better. Since they are both winning players either way must be fine. That being said you bring up a good point about how I should not just be on autopilot here especially when playing for stacks.

So what is the standard play here in these cases? Are they different for hand 1 vs. hand 2? It sounds like it is debateable. I think I was playing these hands too much like tournaments hands where we are not as deep.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I kinda agree with TWP in passive games but in all honesty people take villans' line with flush draws all the time at 5/10 and we kill those hands.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

TWP, if you used a range in your examples instead of saying how villian has two pair it would be a lot clearer. I don't get why you are completely discounting a hand like 6c7c or JcQc in the first hand. Both hands have a straight draw out there which has to be taken into account atleast a tiny % of the time. Also, like Aejones showed people are never going to take your arguments seriously if your saying stuff like the standard play is very poor.

One of these days I just need to sit down with pen and paper, look at these hands, put them on a range, and calculate the EVs. However, I don't think the EV difference would be enormous.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

LOL ty TWP- wish I'd read your words of wisdom before, I kind of worked it out myself but cost me a lot of $ learning that it's not always good to play draws suyperfast. You're right of course- bad players will still pay you off if you hit flush after just calling and appear to be ahead in the hands above. You're so right, when I played this way i thought it was totally standard, it's pleasing my game has developed. I wonder what the next mistake I a am making that i consider standard and discover is a leak will be..

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

i probably just call the flop in hand 1.

hand 2 is fine. lol @ the thought of folding when a ton of villains range is 78dd 98dd 97dd qjdd axdd etc which you have croaked.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

bobbo, 100% agree i'm never folding hand 1. hand 2, I might push the turn, too, depending on the action (say SB checks, and BB bets a blank - this might be a good time to push) but I don't want to get it in on the flop...

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

these hands are very standard. there may be an argument for calling flop in hand 1 - it's basically a min-raise - but raising seems fine too.

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

TWP- Your assumption that villain never folds when/if we hit our flush on the turn is something I do not understand. Isn't this a massive scare card for anyone holding TPTK, two pr, set...??? That's mainly the reason I play these draws fast, because Im pretty sure he will stack off anyways with worse hands/draws on flop, but also it allows us to get more money in quick and not have to commit on turn where we have less equity.

Is my judgement biased/wrong?

Edit: This comment is mainly for hand 2. Hand 1 I understand calling flop

Re: I shouldn\'t even have to ask this probably but...
 

I would call flop #1 but I like #2