JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

Gang

this is a hand discussed on another forum where most folks say fold pre. I just dont see this as right and wanted the collective wisdom of 2+2

heres the deal - BA is bb. all stacks are 4500-5000. blinds are 15/30. We're unknown to BA but we obviously know his rep

Cutoff opens for 90. SB is hero here and calls for 90 with jj(mistake imo unless youre playing to trap a known lag). BA rasies to 420.

So most responders said fold to the raise, a few say flat and play post. I think the right move is to make it 1200 - you gain a bit of respect from BA and you are certainly ahead of his range. For the record, I'd call the four bet shove as well.

Am i crazy (so i know the answer is yes, but referring to this hand)?

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

Given the nature of MTTs at this level and the fact that tons of people open light in the HJ,CO,button,etc I'm definitely popping preflop to about t300ish.

To fold to this raise, IMO, is ridiculous.

The only point I could see for it is that Below doesn't know the 2 players in the hand and is therefore less likely to squeeze fearing that he can't squeeze unknowns.

Still I don't think you can think like that.

I'm shoving here and picking up the money in the pot, which I expect to take it down a lot.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

shoving or raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand. I think folding is ok because were OOP against a crazy man, and calling is prolly ok as well.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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I'm shoving here and picking up the money in the pot, which I expect to take it down a lot.

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This is horrific. So u want to fold worse hands and get stacked the rest of the time?

I call and play poker.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I guess shoving sucks but the flat call preflop is really bad so I wouldn't have to be put in this spot.

So we are basically check/folding any flop that has an ace or king in it?

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important. folding sucks from taht angle, flat and playing aggressive works, but repoppping i think gets you more credit with the probably best hand

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I like a raise. This is BA. He can easily shove a worse hand here and limp four-betting is going to piss most people off enough to shove TT and KJs etc.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important. folding sucks from taht angle, flat and playing aggressive works, but repoppping i think gets you more credit with the probably best hand

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metagame is overrated, esp when it means being knocked out of this tourney and not being in a single spot against below for 100 more tourneys, etc.
Raising sucks hardcore.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

u can call soley to play when you have sets, he cant really outplay you when u have a set.

Hes also a spewmonkey postflop, so i dont mind checking to him on 3 streets and extracting from whatever he felt like squeezing with.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

"metagame is overrated, esp when it means being knocked out of this tourney and not being in a single spot against below for 100 more tourneys, etc.
Raising sucks hardcore"

so ok - so you flat this - whats your plan? what do you do on a 963 rb flop?

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I'd probably call and bet post flop, whatever the flop. If it comes A,K,2 for example, I'd still bet for 2 reasons. One, I want to know where I am in the hand, and two, he could quite easlily be pushing with 76s, 87s, 44 - 10,10 etc. etc and you'd likely take the pot down there and then. The post flop bet would have to be something like 600-700.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

folding to the reraise would be absolutely absurd since you can at the least just play for set value. but against BA i would much rather make it like 1300 and call a shove

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

raising and calling a shove is bad. Sure this is belowabove, but this is how he gets chips because people hand them to him, b/c of his Rep. Hes hardly ever re-raising light in this spot and his shoving range certainly is ahead of JJ.
Calling/folding>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;Raising/shoving.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

Disagree

I think calling >re-raising calling shove > shoving >>> folding

folding wouldnt cross my mind here

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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raising and calling a shove is bad. Sure this is belowabove, but this is how he gets chips because people hand them to him, b/c of his Rep. Hes hardly ever re-raising light in this spot and his shoving range certainly is ahead of JJ.
Calling/folding>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;Raising/shoving.

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just not true. and why are u grouping folding with calling? Folding is so far the worst option it doesn't fit on the page.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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Disagree

I think calling >re-raising calling shove > shoving >>> folding

folding wouldnt cross my mind here

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agreed 100%

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

i think shoving is worse then folding. Were Calling like 1/12 of our chips OOP, but it has more to do that reraising/shoving seems like a total spew to me, you let Below play perfect. He folds AQ and TT if u make it 1300 and you let him shove AK, AA, KK and QQ. Just because hes zomg legendary "spewtard" belowabove, does not mean hes going crazy with 88 here.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand.

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lolololololololololololol

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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i think shoving is worse then folding. Were Calling like 1/12 of our chips OOP, but it has more to do that reraising/shoving seems like a total spew to me, you let Below play perfect. He folds AQ and TT if u make it 1300 and you let him shove AK, AA, KK and QQ. Just because hes zomg legendary "spewtard" belowabove, does not mean hes going crazy with 88 here.

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have you played with Belowabove, like, ever?

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

below really squeezes that light in early levels? oh and yeah nath great input in this thread A+

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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i think shoving is worse then folding. Were Calling like 1/12 of our chips OOP, but it has more to do that reraising/shoving seems like a total spew to me, you let Below play perfect. He folds AQ and TT if u make it 1300 and you let him shove AK, AA, KK and QQ. Just because hes zomg legendary "spewtard" belowabove, does not mean hes going crazy with 88 here.

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Below is not folding TT here everytime. Our line looks sooo BSey. He's not expecting us to be flatting a big pair 100+bbs deep to a co raise.

also i sometimes find myself assuming people are playing back at me light just cause i know im so aggressive even though they havn't had a ton of history with me. so i'm sure below does the same thing to some extent given how he knows he is renowned as being a huge lag. but i could be wrong about that.

and also below just likes to make moves. there is a non 0% chance that he would shove over are raise with a weak hand.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand.

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lolololololololololololol

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nath that's vs. you

vs. me he is likely to act differently lol

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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below really squeezes that light in early levels? oh and yeah nath great input in this thread A+

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my point was made, read djk's post if you want to know why

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

Our line looks BSey? Yea Most likely, this is like the second level of the tourney... I really don't think he is raising light from the BB like ever, and i dont think hes gonna "go with a read" and ship 175 bbs in the pot with 67s, in the early level, just because our line looks wierd.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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Our line looks BSey? Yea Most likely, this is like the second level of the tourney... I really don't think he is raising light from the BB like ever, and i dont think hes gonna "go with a read" and ship 175 bbs in the pot with 67s, in the early level, just because our line looks wierd.

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I think he would absolutely do those things

not all of the time, but enough of the time

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

NEVER EVER FOLD.

Does Below know who you are?

Because if he knows your decent he has to know you like never have QQ+ here and rarely JJ+ AK that's the thing our hand is basically the exact top of our range and there's no way Below excepts to show up here with a hand as strong has JJ so I probably 4bet to like 1000 and call a shove. If I don't do that I call and re/evaluate. If I hit a good flop I can definetely see my self donking 3/4 pot and snap calling a shove.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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shoving or raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand. I think folding is ok because were OOP against a crazy man, and calling is prolly ok as well.

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Below isn't folding nines,tens,AQ,AK here and probably not sevens or eights from my play with him and what I know of him. Don't rule out AJs, though with us holding two jacks its a rare case.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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Cutoff opens for 90. SB is hero here and calls for 90 with jj(mistake imo unless youre playing to trap a known lag). BA rasies to 420.


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Call. c/r non-Ace flops and shove most turns. (divide stacks wisely and get most chips in in two chunks.)

If you raise pf to 1200, you raise alert and action may stop on the flop.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand.

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lolololololololololololol

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Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I'll expand on this more but if you call pf and the flop is 932r its a such an easy bet call. If you donk below will shove so many high cards/any draw and will never fold a pair. (I.e. he's never folding.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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raising sucks for obvious reason of Below is only calling with a better hand.

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lolololololololololololol

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great input in this thread A+

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Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

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disagree

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

still think 4 betting is a horrible spew, calling is ok though.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I hate 4-betting here. Call and check/call flop...c/c or c/r turn..etc. If u suck, call for set value or something. Plz dont fold or raise, both are so stupid this deep imo..unless u two had history which apparantly u dont.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

Explain why it's spew. Seems fine to me. Against a random, obviously calling is better.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

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disagree

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asp, all - why is metagame unimportant here or you dont think it will make a difference? against a lag like BA, I think showing you have the balls early to push back is very important or you'll be run over by him all game. now granted he may still attempt to do that, but he is like all of us a very read dependent player - ba will be less likely to attempt to abuse you if you show backbone - no? (admittedly dont have much time with him but have seens some of his vids where he says as much)

wn

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

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guys

i really think theres a metagame factor. "sending a message" to below we cant be pushed around i think is very important.

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disagree

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asp, all - why is metagame unimportant here or you dont think it will make a difference? against a lag like BA, I think showing you have the balls early to push back is very important or you'll be run over by him all game. now granted he may still attempt to do that, but he is like all of us a very read dependent player - ba will be less likely to attempt to abuse you if you show backbone - no? (admittedly dont have much time with him but have seens some of his vids where he says as much)

wn

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The importance of meta - game pales in significance to the neccesity of making the play with the highest cEV. Particularly in an online tournament where you may reasonably go for long stretches (like 50 toruneys at the same level) without sitting at the same table as him again. And each time you sit, you may only end up playing a relatively small number of actual hands directly against him.

If this guy was a regular multi - tabler at our cash game level and we were logging large quantities of hands against him on a weekly basis - then we probably should start becoming highly concious of mixing things up against him; and doing some wierd stuff in specific spots to keep him guessing.


As such, the important thing to focus on here is what the best line is. We should be - raising to 1200 if we think that is the play that carries the most EV - not because we want to show him how elongated our penis is.

I probably call the 420 myself here pre, then get very ignorant and stubborn post - flop and never fold a ton of boards no matter what he does.

By the way OP - you indicated that the concensus on the other board was for folding? Where you just referencing that discussion as a scene setter for this thread, or did such a discussion and conclusion actually take place? As I would be interesting to hear some of the reasoning behind folding. I assume it's awful logic - as I think foolding here and not playing purely for set value at the very least would be horrendous.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

lol at 4betting pre... BA might be crazy lag, but i agree with all who say this 4bet allows him to play perfectly for stacks. With no history, BA will play AA, KK, QQ, AK, that's it. way to turn JJ into a bluff.

Way better is to call and CRAI most flops, imho.

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

it was on pxf and as i look back it was a mix between flatting and folding. the general consensus on folding was that in essence its a small mistake early versus a potentially large mistake of playing for your stack when you may be dominated

as i said in op this was not my hand and i disagree - still think raising makes sense

i do get your point on the metagame, but i do think it can be a tie breaker. who knows how long you'll play with BA at this table, but having him have a bit of respect for you can save a bunch of chips over the course of a tourney. i agree its not the deciding factor, but i think discounting it is a mistake

Re: JJ in sb versus BelowAbove
 

I'd just like to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion in this thread. I know what it feels like to be a LAG who is paranoid of people playing back light, but I've never heard anyone put it into words. The line that now seems optimal is very non-standard. This is just a great poker hand to think about, it really shows the "skill" side of the game. Anyway, nice thread.