like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

ever.

villain 33/11/0 after 20 hands

c/f river? c/c?

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $47.54
BTN: $260.86
Hero (SB): $97.50
BB: $125.03
UTG: $104.68
MP: $92.78

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, BTN calls $1, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5</font>, BB folds, BTN calls $4

Flop: ($11) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, BTN calls $8

Turn: ($27) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $18</font>, BTN calls $18

River: ($63) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $40</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $229.86 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $26.50 and is All-In

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

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c/f river



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Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

cmon u just ended up with top set, i'd bet 40$ or so for value like you

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

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cmon u just ended up with top set, i'd bet 40$ or so for value like you

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i doubt he would suddenly raise anything else flush though but not disciplined enough to b/f

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

you don't have enough to bet/fold. I probably c/c...well check at least, then see what he does. Not really sure how I'd respond.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

Bet more on the turn? I'd make it $23 there. Not sure what is best on the river though, I hate folding and a hate shoving so I think I check/call. The problem with c/c though is this guy isn't going to be bluffing so you don't get value from stuff you beat. Hmmm, maybe bet a really small amount and hope he doesn't raise a right lot. These passive post flop guys don't normally make big raises so if you bet $5 he may just hit raise and you can get to SD for $10 which would be good here imo.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

bet bigger on turn and c/c a reasonable bet on river

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

lol I really hope some leveling is going on here.

Edit: in case there is no leveling, I am referring to the posts about slowing down anywhere... c/c'ing top set vs a player with AF 0 is so ugly just beyond terrible. Such a low AF means he'd only bet the nuts and call about anything else. c/c would make it so that he checks behind every worse hand so you get no value, and he bets when you are beat and then you call. Great way to lose the maximum and win the minimum.
c/f would be already better, but that is ugly, horrible and terrible as well. Openshoving is the only way to go.

My line would be $10 on flop, $30 on turn, shove river.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

easy c/f imo
check calling is the worst of bet/calling c/fing and bet folding i think

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

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lol I really hope some leveling is going on here.

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Is that aimed at me?

I was serious! Are you in the shoving camp?

The K is such a horrible card because it makes our hand look so much better but it really doesn't change a lot. If villian had a set he is raising flop or turn 90% of the time, same with 2pr. He's played this so so much like a FD that getting to SD cheap as possible has to be the best move. How often do you see a 0AF guy shove? Super rare, we all know the minraise is the king of all moves so bet $5, let him minraise or get trixy and make it $15 so we can get to SD cheap.

Am I being a total retard here?

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

keyser, checking should only be done with the intention of folding, which I don't like :/. Much rather b/c, b/f or shove

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

dont think there's much value here. if he doesn't have us beat the ks is about as scary as it gets for him.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

maybe i'm dumb, but i would bet more on the turn and either b/c or shove river. 20 hands means almost nothing, but KKK means a lot. wtf.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

Shove river (PSB) imo, 20 hands != read on agression.
+ get ready to type "blacks pwn KKK"

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

c/c river has got to be bad here, he checks behind a ton of hands that you beat which he could call with

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

Lol at folding.

I bet 22 on the turn. Sets up for a nice river shove.

People will slowplay sets and whatever here.

Sure he is gonna show up with a flush sometimes. But people suck, so i never fold.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

holy [censored] i thought I was obviously joking. bet and call wtf.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

bet more everywhere and shove river

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

this spot sucks. his calling range on the river is obviously much larger than his betting range on the river. So we lose value when we miss a bet, and it's -EV to get stacked all day. I hate check-call, unless villain is capable of turning a small pair into a bluff.

Damn, it might be a check-fold. Even if he shoves, we only have to be good here 33% of the time. However, I never see him betting with worse enough even if he turns some hands into a bluff (like 45s).

Therefore, could pushing be correct? Does the Villain ever slow play 78 on the turn? And even if he does, does he call a river push? The board just gets worse and worse for one pair hands that he could possibly have. Meh, I don't really feel like breaking down his range.

I guess I'm sticking with check-fold. I just don't think he's calling with a worse hand more than 50% of the time.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol I really hope some leveling is going on here.

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Is that aimed at me?

I was serious! Are you in the shoving camp?

The K is such a horrible card because it makes our hand look so much better but it really doesn't change a lot. If villian had a set he is raising flop or turn 90% of the time, same with 2pr. He's played this so so much like a FD that getting to SD cheap as possible has to be the best move. How often do you see a 0AF guy shove? Super rare, we all know the minraise is the king of all moves so bet $5, let him minraise or get trixy and make it $15 so we can get to SD cheap.

Am I being a total retard here?

[/ QUOTE ]
It was aimed partly at you and some of the other posters.

I won't call anyone a retard, but I do believe you are wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The reason is that you don't know yet that villain shoves at the moment when you make your river decision, so you cannot base your action on that.

And if you somehow still think you are very much behind to his range, then c/f is still better than c/c, although I don't consider c/f a real option here. Who knows what the guy is slowplaying, he might even have a set. Villains do stupid things. I'm comfortable shoving it on the river, and file it under the coolers if he has a flush.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

shove river wtf

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
this spot sucks. his calling range on the river is obviously much larger than his betting range on the river. So we lose value when we miss a bet, and it's -EV to get stacked all day. I hate check-call, unless villain is capable of turning a small pair into a bluff.

Damn, it might be a check-fold. Even if he shoves, we only have to be good here 33% of the time. However, I never see him betting with worse enough even if he turns some hands into a bluff (like 45s).

Therefore, could pushing be correct? Does the Villain ever slow play 78 on the turn? And even if he does, does he call a river push? The board just gets worse and worse for one pair hands that he could possibly have. Meh, I don't really feel like breaking down his range.

I guess I'm sticking with check-fold. I just don't think he's calling with a worse hand more than 50% of the time.

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we call always rely on you for weak-tight advice. Villain is a fish, his calling range is wide, just bet.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

Bet more on turn, I c/c river for busted 45o and the like.

If villain is a callingstation-fish I valuebet the river like you did.

Folding to that raise just because a spade got there is insane with the money already in the pot and the little more to call.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

The K on the river is either a blessing or disaster here. I would almost have to put him on a set already or two pair by the way he has played this hand. (unless this player was known to chase any and all flush draws). Although, I would have checked raised the turn if I was on the button to protect my hand in case you had the flush draw as well.

Your bet on the river though pot committed yourself. So he has to know you are not folding. So you are calling hoping he has two pair or a smaller set than yours, but knowing he just may have the flush and your screwed.

Or....he had AA and played them really bad!!

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

Shove river WTF.

Check/call = terrible. Let him check down 99+ and [censored] like 87 and bet flushes. Brilliant.

Bet $40 = terrible. Let him shove flushes and his calling range for $40 is identical to his calling range for $67, or close enough that the EV of shoving is clearly higher. Again, brillaint.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

AF 0 can surely have any twopair or any set or any pocket pair on any street. Just valuetown river, bet more on flop/turn.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

The idea that anyone would c/f this river is just baffling.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove river WTF.

Check/call = terrible. Let him check down 99+ and [censored] like 87 and bet flushes. Brilliant.

Bet $40 = terrible. Let him shove flushes and his calling range for $40 is identical to his calling range for $67, or close enough that the EV of shoving is clearly higher. Again, brillaint.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really good post.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

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The idea that anyone would c/f this river is just baffling.

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I agree that checking the river is bad, but c/f is a better line than c/call. Of course, pushing is better than either.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

this thread is funny. $23 on the turn and shove the river....wtf.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

WTF at check-folding the top set? Shove it all day.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

uhhh where does it say that he's a calling station? he's 33/11/0 over 30 hands. you realize that guy can a have stats like these and not play like a total monkey post flop? when ppl slowplay i find that by the turn theyve usually thrown in a raise. sure he has two pair/set sometimes but i think he has some bad one pair hand most of the times. the ks is a really bad card for a hand like this so if im valubetting its probably around 50% of the pot. i still prefer check folding tho

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove river WTF.

Check/call = terrible. Let him check down 99+ and [censored] like 87 and bet flushes. Brilliant.

Bet $40 = terrible. Let him shove flushes and his calling range for $40 is identical to his calling range for $67, or close enough that the EV of shoving is clearly higher. Again, brillaint.

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Well said. I don't have numbers, but it seems it's an easy push and the best way to maximize EV. I don't even really think about it at the table I don't think.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

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easy c/f imo
check calling is the worst of bet/calling c/fing and bet folding i think

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i lolled at c/f this.

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

op played it goot

Re: like i said in previous post, i dont fold KK
 

you have ~ a PSB left on the river, with top set. He definitely could have a lower set, or a flush, or some random two pair or something (I dont know.. maybe?)

Anyways, I will have to agree with the "showdown tax" thread, and stick it in here, and let him decide what to do.