How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

say you and the bb are both good players and you know that about each other.
What hands do you play from sb when folded to for ....:
a raise:
a raise/call:
a raise/fold:
a raise/reraise:
a limp/fold:
a limp/call:
a limp/reraise:

How do you think bb should react to our play?

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

ok i ll try first and post a (crappy) range [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]:
a raise/call: aq, 99, tt, aj
a raise/fold: a6,a7,a8,a9, a10, kj,22,33,44,55, q10,qj
a raise/reraise: aa, qq, jj, ak, kq, suitedconnectors
a limp/fold: a2,a3,a4,a5
a limp/call:
a limp/reraise: 88,77,66, kk

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

this is pretty subjective i think, hard to determine where u draw the line, for example u say with pocket 5's u would raise/fold but with 66 u would limp/reraise,also u have KQ there for raise/reraise, but AJ in raise/call, if u raise & bb reraises ur probably behind more often with KQ then AJ so why reraise with KQ & just call with AJ? all & all i dont think u can group certain hands in to categories like this, i think a lot depends on feel & how u have both been playing, table images, etc..if uve open limped from sb a few times with weak aces, suited connectors, etc & bb constantly raises, then yeah u may limp next time with aces or kings to trap him. against a good player u probably want to mix up ur play & not limit urself to raising/calling/folding/reraising with a set range of hands. some people will say never to open limp from sb & either raise or fold, but that all depends on the bb & how he plays.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

yeah but it should somehow converge to an equilibrium state (sort of) after a few hundred hands or not? assumption is that the big blind is a good player who will make correct adaptions to my play. i dont think it is the actual specific hands that matter that much, but to find the correct aggression level and the correct ratios for bluffing and good hands and also balanced ranges that hit on different flop textures.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

no ideas, whaddya think about my ranges?

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

does limping here ever make sense?

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

always limp (I'm not kidding)

against intelligent guys who are going to realize that they are in a fantastic position against you I think limping a huge range works fairly well (and never raising).

against guys who respect your raises obviously bet frequently for your fold equity (if he's going to call instead of 3bet then bet hands that will do well if he calls with a strongish range)

and against guys who always call no matter what just bet your huge hands.

all of this is dependent on how your opponents play postflop. And once an opponent gets a handle on how you are playing you ought to change it up.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
always limp (I'm not kidding)

against intelligent guys who are going to realize that they are in a fantastic position against you I think limping a huge range works fairly well (and never raising).
...

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yeah but what do you do if he frequently raises your limps? reraising a lot or just call with almost everything? limp calling too much cant be good because he can raise the better part of his range preflop and we should lose oop after the flop if he his good.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

[ QUOTE ]

yeah but what do you do if he frequently raises your limps? reraising a lot or just call with almost everything? limp calling too much cant be good because he can raise the better part of his range preflop and we should lose oop after the flop if he his good.

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I'm limp/calling AA just as often as 79. I think this should help clear up the problem. By just raising the good hands in his range doesn't allow your opponent to exploit this strategy. If your opponent is only raising his strong hands feel free to limp/fold occasionally.

If your opponent rarely 3bets I'm a fan of raising more hands out of the sb.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

Raise because most people play too tight here.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

having a static range for each action is terrible and super exploitable especially with your qualifier that bb is observant and wll adjust to our play. i also almost never complete the sb, either raise or fold and thats had fairly decent results for me.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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having a static range for each action is terrible and super exploitable

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no one was talking about a static range. i just wanted to figure out some reasonable ranges if two good players play from the blinds.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I'm limp/calling AA just as often as 79.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't possibly be serious.

[ QUOTE ]
By just raising the good hands in his range doesn't allow your opponent to exploit this strategy

[/ QUOTE ]
Letting him play medium pots with a huge range, in position, with initiative is like giving him free money. He'd have to be flat out terrible not to exploit this strategy mercilessly.

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent rarely 3bets I'm a fan of raising more hands out of the sb.

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This is obviously a very important consideration. But if he's three betting a lot, why in the hell are you limping AA?

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

I think some of the stuff tommo and others have said in this thread is so bad it's ban worthy.
The only two pieces of info I would use when deciding how often to raise someone's BB is how often they call the pfr and their general aggression and 3betting frequencies. I will never limp my SB, especially vs a good agressive thinking player as its just retarded

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I will never limp my SB, especially vs a good agressive thinking player as its just retarded

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$100 says you can't defend this position intelligently.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I will never limp my SB, especially vs a good agressive thinking player as its just retarded

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$100 says you can't defend this position intelligently.

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I probably can't not vs you anyway!

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

Anyway I just prefer to raise and I've never seen anyone put a good argument towards open-limping in the SB anyway

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I just prefer to raise and I've never seen anyone put a good argument towards open-limping in the SB anyway

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Don't get me wrong, I don't make any sort of habit out of it, but broad sweeping assumptions like "open limping the SB is retarded" just make you look like an idiot.

Just as an example, if you knew he was going to raise a ridiculous % of his range if you limped, and you knew that he was going to call and try to outplay you with a ridiculous % of his range if you raise, limp re-raising becomes very appealing alternative with strong hands.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

OP,

I generally glance at his fold BB to steal % and base my opening range off of that.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm limp/calling AA just as often as 79.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't possibly be serious.

[ QUOTE ]
By just raising the good hands in his range doesn't allow your opponent to exploit this strategy

[/ QUOTE ]
Letting him play medium pots with a huge range, in position, with initiative is like giving him free money. He'd have to be flat out terrible not to exploit this strategy mercilessly.

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent rarely 3bets I'm a fan of raising more hands out of the sb.

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This is obviously a very important consideration. But if he's three betting a lot, why in the hell are you limping AA?

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big jim I change my strategy up frequently.

I will definitely limp/call AA in the right situation. The right situation may be a bb who raises very frequently and overvalues the 'initiative' (which is really a make believe thing anyways).

against an opponent who 3bets a lot I would rather bet out with JJ+,AK.

The point is, I change my sb strategy a lot, one which works surprisingly well is limping my entire range. you can tell by some responses in this thread why it works so well. Many players play a raise/fold strategy preflop (not necessarily 3betting that often). This means that if I limp to the bb he will often raise with trash, and if I raise he will only call with a good range.

I can exploit this propensity to raise too frequently quite well by limping all the time. Actually, limping from the sb a lot works well against frequent 3bettors as well...but this is a little more complicated.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I will definitely limp/call AA in the right situation.

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That's fine and good, but I can't imagine that the right situation to limp/call with AA OOP comes up as often as the right situation to do it with 79.

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The right situation may be a bb who raises very frequently and overvalues the 'initiative' (which is really a make believe thing anyways)

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It exists because people believe it exists. You can choose not to check to the raiser if you wish, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

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The point is, I change my sb strategy a lot

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That's fair enough, and I'm all for experimenting, but I can't come up with anything aside from very contrived scenarios from which the conclusion of "limp your whole range" follows, even if you are only using that strategy as one of your gears.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

I just fold alot.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I just prefer to raise and I've never seen anyone put a good argument towards open-limping in the SB anyway

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't get me wrong, I don't make any sort of habit out of it, but broad sweeping assumptions like "open limping the SB is retarded" just make you look like an idiot.

Just as an example, if you knew he was going to raise a ridiculous % of his range if you limped, and you knew that he was going to call and try to outplay you with a ridiculous % of his range if you raise, limp re-raising becomes very appealing alternative with strong hands.

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Doesn't sound like a good player then, just a lagtard. I should have edited to say that it seems retarded to me, I know there are very rare spots but as a general statement I don't think I was wrong anyway

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I just fold alot.

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Underrated advice. Good players love to call raises in the BB there w/ a large range and hate folding to c-bets in BvB battles.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

Never give a free card to a good player with position.

In this position I never limp; I tighten my PF range then either raise or fold, with the occasional bluff.

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

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I just fold alot.

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How much?

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

I open up a new table lol. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: How to play when folded to on the sb against a good player?
 

interesting thread, same as what i was asking but i just picked 99 as an example.

i agree with tommo. equally though i think you can have more of a raise/fold strategy.

the most important factor is being able to change your game based on how your blind battles have gone the last few times, and be able to exploit his view of you to your advantage. by constantly being aware of his view of you, so you can constantly either tighten, loosen, be more or less aggressive depending on how to exploit his view of you.

without the ability to adapt your play based on his changing view of you (based on how you have played the last few hands vs him), you will lose, but with such ability and always being 'one step ahead' in using your image advantageously, then you should come out ahead.

im sure this is pretty fundamental stuff and something most will know, but something i think is definitely valid with all hands, especially in such regular heads up scenarios.