River Decision?
 

6handed.

first orbit, maybe second. BB seems sort of loose and passive. UTG raised earlier with AJo and bet it UI the whole way. lost to A6o that flopped a 6. that's all i know(it was BB in that hand that he lost to).

anyway, UTG raises, i 3bet A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO(comments?), folds to BB who calls, UTG caps, we call.

Flop(12.5sb): K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG checks, i bet(comments?), BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn(7.75bb): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check, check, i check(comments?).

River(7.75bb): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check, check, and it's on me...

what about how i've played the hand to this point? why are we doing what on the river?

Re: River Decision?
 

james, I think this would make a good play along.

theres too many decisions at once imo

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
james, I think this would make a good play along.

theres too many decisions at once imo

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i'm going on a girl scout camping trip tonight so i don't have time for a playalong. even though i need to be packing for a move to a new house among a million other things(razorback game, golf, etc.) i'm taking the oldest daughter(7), middle daughter(5) and the wife to a brownie family camping trip! woohoo!

take it one street at a time if you want. i didn't think there was that much up for debate earlier. maybe i'm wrong.

btw, you people keep things in line while i'm gone tonight. i'll be back in action tomorrow some time. i guess i'll have my blackberry, but damn it's time-consuming.

Re: River Decision?
 

In a full ring game I almost always fold AJo to a raise unless I know the raiser is raising very light. In a 6 handed game where the players have adjusted, this is probably ok. If the players have not adjusted, I would fold it to stay out of trouble. You play better post flop, so probably +EV for you.

I like the flop bet. If UTG check raises, I might fold or call and fold the turn UI. Since he didn’t CR, he must have missed the flop or be trying a sick slow play.

I would probably not bet the turn, because the pot is too big, and I think it is unlikely you will be able to fold everyone.

On the river, I don’t see how anyone you beat will call.

Re: River Decision?
 

i check the river behind

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
6handed.

UTG raises, i 3bet A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO(comments?),

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh

Re: River Decision?
 

Preflop I think folding is better than raising. This is a terrible hand to try to isolate with, unless he's so loose we're ahead of a big portion of his range.

Flop bet is reasonable, though I'd fold to a checkraise here for sure.

As played check behind the river.

Re: River Decision?
 

I haven't read anything but the original post:

1. I fold this pre-flop. It's just not worth getting your panties all in a bunch over, particularly against an opponent willing to get UI high cards. Once you 3-town it and he caps, you are in deep poo.

2. Good bet on the flop. I mean, you pretty much have to bet there if you want any chance of showing this hand down.

3. On the turn, given your read of BB and the UTG cap, I can't see how betting could win the pot, and you're certainly not ahead. Check behind and hit one of your 7 (very dirty) outs.

4. Well done. You've spiked an ace, which gives you a puncher's chance to win the hand. Betting here would be pretty bad I think. NOTHING you beat calls and a huge portion of UTGs range is sitting on two pair right now. Check behind and collect the pot from red JJ ?

Re: River Decision?
 

i dont mind how you played it at all, i think you have to check river because i dont think anything that beats you is going to fold the way this hand played out, and its hard to believe you can value bet this.

Re: River Decision?
 

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Flop bet is reasonable, though I'd fold to a checkraise here for sure.

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id never fold 3 and very likely 4 clean outs to the nuts in this pot for 1 SB.

Re: River Decision?
 

Preflop: I'm not sure if I 3bet or fold here this early in the session. The read on the raiser suggests he's frisky, though, so I lean 3bet.

Flop: I'm tempted to bet here to fold PPs and A-J on the turn.

Turn: If I bet the flop, seems like I should bet the turn to induce folds.

River: Given the turn check-through, I probably check river. Seems like most losing hands are folding, and we chop w /A-J.

Re: River Decision?
 

I think the pf raise is ok, really depends on his range. If this is 6-max, the ranges of many are wide enough to 3-bet here. We can get away with even slightly less than 50% equity against UTG's range in these situations because of our position and for the many times that there will be dead money in the pot.

UTG checking the flop is very strange. I would usually think that he is trying to be cute with a set or else he has an under-pair to the board. I could go either way here but the pot is large enough to try and win it and if we get c/r we have outs.

I check the turn also.

I check behind on the river

Re: River Decision?
 

Was this a B and M or online? In a full B and M game Im folding PF here. 6 handed I think it is def read dependent. I think I would still find a better spot to put 3 bets in. The flop and turn are standard for me. Im checking the river. No hand will call that doesn't beat you and any hand that does beat you likely will call.

Re: River Decision?
 

I've been thinking about this hand all evening. I think part of why I'm having trouble with it is because it is 6max, which I never play and which I never read about.

The preflop raise/cap followed by flop check is a strange line. In full ring, it almost always means he caught a huge piece of the flop. I do know that 6max features more preflop raising, and I imagine that preflop aggressors therefore relinquish the initiative more often than they do in full ring. What I don't know is what 6maxers would do with a hand like TT here.

The very small read you have on him would seem to suggest that if he whiffed this flop, he'd be a little more likely to bet it. But the sample size is one hand, and even that is a fairly different situation. So I think we can basically ignore the read.

I keep going back and forth on the flop bet. It's hard to argue you with it because it got you to the river for one SB, which is clearly worth the investment in a pot this size. On the other hand, how often can you expect that to happen?

Betting this flop if he has a monster like KK or QQ is one of those mistakes that compounds itself, because if he does checkraise you on the flop, the pot is big enough that you have to call the check raise, and often the turn bet, too.

I have some thoughts about the turn and river, but before I proceed, I'm interested if some of the posters with more 6max experience can chime in on what is typical for villain's range here and what he might do with those hands on the flop.

-McGee

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
6handed.

first orbit, maybe second. BB seems sort of loose and passive. UTG raised earlier with AJo and bet it UI the whole way. lost to A6o that flopped a 6. that's all i know(it was BB in that hand that he lost to).

anyway, UTG raises, i 3bet A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the CO(comments?), folds to BB who calls, UTG caps, we call.

So far so good.

Flop(12.5sb): K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG checks, i bet(comments?), BB calls, UTG calls.

Bet is good, info.

Turn(7.75bb): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check, check, i check(comments?).

Bet, give them a reason to fold.

River(7.75bb): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check, check, and it's on me...

I check this back, flush is killing me, take the free showdown, check a strong hand, bet a weak hand.

what about how i've played the hand to this point?
You played this too weak shorthanded,

why are we doing what on the river?
Your chasing this to the river because of weak post flop play. Your turn check sealed your fate. They know you have nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about this hand all evening. I think part of why I'm having trouble with it is because it is 6max, which I never play and which I never read about.



[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about this hand for a total of two seconds. Here's the thoughts that entered my mind in this time frame: Fold preflop. Check River. Turn is an obvious check. Flop is close between checking and betting.

Re: River Decision?
 

No way I fold this preflop, the preflop play was the best street he played. No way I only think about this 2 seconds.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way I fold this preflop, the preflop play was the best street he played. No way I only think about this 2 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was actually being modest/conservative. I may've thought about this hand for less than 2 seconds.

Re: River Decision?
 

utg seems like he could easily be a tard based on 3-barreling the near nut no pair. 3-bet preflop is absolutely standard imo. when he CAPCHECKS the flop you should LOL at him and check behind. use the whole time bank. you are checking the river because you won't be called enough by worse hands and better hands will not fold.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about this hand for a total of two seconds. Here's the thoughts that entered my mind in this time frame: Fold preflop. Check River. Turn is an obvious check. Flop is close between checking and betting.

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hehe. i must be slow cause it took me 20 seconds to realize i agree 100% with this line. I think the flop is much close to a check then a bet imho

Brian

Re: River Decision?
 

this hand is EZ James. I'm a bit surprised you think any of the streets are debatable. The only semi debatable street is the flop IMO. However, I haven't read the other responses, or your reasoning, so maybe I am missing something.

PF is a fold vs an UTG raise even 6 handed unless you are playing 6max online and have stats that villain is an overaggro 6max player. Live I just muck, and smile inside when they show the inevitable TT+, AQ+. If they show A5o, or some other strange hand, then I make a note in my head, and next time I pwn them with my pocket sevens or whatever.

Flop is worth a bet. UTGs cap may have been weak, or he may wait for the turn to CR his flopped set, or maybe the board just missed him and he has JJ. If you do get CR, it's not the end of the world. We're trying to get to see the turn and river for 1sb.

Turn. BINGO. Free card.

River. BINGO, free showdown
After the turn check through, people will get paranoid you are bluffing because they showed too much weakness. Just check and hope your hand is good. When I have a weak made hand thst has showdown value in a medium sized pot, I tend to just check it unless I have a very tight image, my opponents are folders, and I am pretty damn sure my hand is not good.

Re: River Decision?
 

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Flop bet is reasonable, though I'd fold to a checkraise here for sure.

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you realize if we get CRed we are getting more than 13:1 on our gutshot draw to the nuts, right?

Re: River Decision?
 

i didn't really have a tough time with this hand. i thought it was a semi-interesting spot on the river. maybe i was wrong.

it's aggressiveonline game that seems, and more importantly turned out to be, playing like a typical small stakes(2/4-5/10) table.

pf is marginally good.

flop is worth it. pot is big and UTGs line is odd. i think he has an underpair or a monster(two pair/set) here usually. if he's not bet/3betting a monster he's probably waiting for the turn some portion of the time.

underpair combos outnumber set/two pair combos. getting to the river for 1 sb is great, and given the price it's likely worth the risk.

there's not much straight equity value in a river bet. does the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ever fold?

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]

there's not much straight equity value in a river bet. does the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ever fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

no
I think the better question is:
how often are you up against 2pair or a set, and how often will those hands fold?

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

there's not much straight equity value in a river bet. does the 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ever fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

no
I think the better question is:
how often are you up against 2pair or a set, and how often will those hands fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

what two pair or set checkcalls like this flop on that board? most always gonna see action in that spot.

IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS PEOPLE: IF THEY HAVE A DECENT FLUSH THEY'RE BETTING THE RIVER BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID IT'S CHECKING THROUGH. just wanted to make sure we're on the same page there.

it's pretty obvious how narrow by the river the range really is.

Re: River Decision?
 

ok james, now you are just confusing me. Are you seriously considering valuebetting this river 3 ways?

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok james, now you are just confusing me. Are you seriously considering valuebetting this river 3 ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, not really.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok james, now you are just confusing me. Are you seriously considering valuebetting this river 3 ways?

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no, not really.

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btw, what propensity do you think a mid/smallish club might feel towards a fold because of the irrational fear of a guy left to act that he thinks may raise since he has the nuts(even though he is often holding red jacks, or TT or 99, etc.)? its a situational parlay/multiple advantage kind of question.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop is much close to a check then a bet imho

Brian

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I agree, but I cant totally be against a flop bet with the intention of checking the turn UI. Given the large pot size, we dont have to pull this play off very often to make a flop bet worth it.

Re: River Decision?
 

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3-bet preflop is absolutely standard imo.

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AQo is my minimum here. I need more information to 3bet with AJo.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
flop is worth it. pot is big and UTGs line is odd. i think he has an underpair or a monster(two pair/set) here usually. if he's not bet/3betting a monster he's probably waiting for the turn some portion of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

James, I don't think you're ever picking up the pot with a flop bet. The reason to bet this flop is to a)get to the river for 1 SB, or b)set up the hand to take it down with a bet on the turn and/or river.

-McGee

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop is worth it. pot is big and UTGs line is odd. i think he has an underpair or a monster(two pair/set) here usually. if he's not bet/3betting a monster he's probably waiting for the turn some portion of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

James, I don't think you're ever picking up the pot with a flop bet. The reason to bet this flop is to a)get to the river for 1 SB, or b)set up the hand to take it down with a bet on the turn and/or river.

-McGee

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crap, i never meant to insinuate i thought i would win this pot on the flop. sorry if i came across that way. i meant it's worth it to see the river for the 1sb. i don't think i ever win it UI on the turn/river with a bet, either.

in the actual hand i checked behind. UTG had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the BB had red nines.

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop is worth it. pot is big and UTGs line is odd. i think he has an underpair or a monster(two pair/set) here usually. if he's not bet/3betting a monster he's probably waiting for the turn some portion of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

James, I don't think you're ever picking up the pot with a flop bet. The reason to bet this flop is to a)get to the river for 1 SB, or b)set up the hand to take it down with a bet on the turn and/or river.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

crap, i never meant to insinuate i thought i would win this pot on the flop. sorry if i came across that way. i meant it's worth it to see the river for the 1sb. i don't think i ever win it UI on the turn/river with a bet, either.

in the actual hand i checked behind. UTG had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the BB had red nines.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got the 7c as the turn card.

-McGee

Re: River Decision?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop is worth it. pot is big and UTGs line is odd. i think he has an underpair or a monster(two pair/set) here usually. if he's not bet/3betting a monster he's probably waiting for the turn some portion of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

James, I don't think you're ever picking up the pot with a flop bet. The reason to bet this flop is to a)get to the river for 1 SB, or b)set up the hand to take it down with a bet on the turn and/or river.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

crap, i never meant to insinuate i thought i would win this pot on the flop. sorry if i came across that way. i meant it's worth it to see the river for the 1sb. i don't think i ever win it UI on the turn/river with a bet, either.

in the actual hand i checked behind. UTG had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the BB had red nines.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got the 7c as the turn card.

-McGee

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i just remember the turn being a medium club. it was likely the 8c, then. sorry. it's what i get for posting from work w/o a HH. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]