L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

I am 29y/o.

I feel like I am near death, this feeling comes from my awareness of infinity, and the relation of my finite existence to it.

I also make this same relation to the life of my son and daughter who are combined aged <3.

I believe that when I die there is nothing. I also believe that the same is true for anyone I care about, and who cares about me.

The combination above seriously depresses me. I fear death, and I think about it several times daily, with increasing regularity to the point where it is starting to become a problem.

I am developing an alcohol dependancy that interests me, as it both helps me deal with the issue, while also bringing it forward due to the physical effects of consumption.

In short I am ferociously embracing a lifestyle that will reduce the exposure to the pain I currently feel.

I know I have no right to ask for advice/help under such terms, I just thought it would make for an interesting discussion amongst you that I may gain from. Nothing would please me more than finding a 'solution', and that is obviously my motive, but I am not sure that my condition is cureable.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

†

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Pragmatic advice: Seek help and I'd certainly curtail the drinking considering you have two young children to raise.

Philosophical advice: There isn't a solution. Most everybody needs a reason to get throughout the day without the ennui of despair. I've been in a similar situation and gone completely nuts over it with the aid of substances. Definitely not something I suggest as an optimal path.

This is what I don't get, if you think there's nothing when you die, why even fear death? While I understand the despair you speak of, over time logic will make you realize you shouldn't fear or embrace it, but be indifferent to it. It happens anyway.

Awareness of infinity is one of the prices of self-awareness. Tough [censored], but it can be dealt with.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

TY for responding.

[ QUOTE ]

This is what I don't get, if you think there's nothing when you die, why even fear death?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is EVERYTHING about the issue as far as I am concerned.

I don't know. I am a generally rational being, and I think that is a big part of it. How do you think you will FEEL on your death bed? Seriously? 1 second to go, and you are aware of it? I can't think of any worse feeling, and I know it's coming, and I know that nothing (else) matters.

The brackets are important, because 1) nothing matters (see OP) and 2) if nothing matters then ultimately all I have is my last 1 second.

P.S. I am not stubbornly trying to argue my point, I am genuinely hoping to understand something you all 'get'.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Also I should have added -

Why are you not bothered about ceasing to 'be'?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you think you will FEEL on your death bed? Seriously? 1 second to go, and you are aware of it? I can't think of any worse feeling, and I know it's coming, and I know that nothing (else) matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that. It can be the worst feeling in the world to deal with. But you do get over it when you realize you can't solve the problem rationally. I think you're in a phase where you're seriously facing your mortality for the first time and it royally [censored] sucks. Most people do get over it, however.

Painful as it is to realize, there is simply nothing you can do to prevent your own death, but you can certainly accelerate the circumstances. That's why I suggested you at least seek help/stop drinking, because when you go down that path, you start to affect others' quality of life. And while it isn't selfish to mull over this issue, when it affects others'... You see where I'm going with this, so I'll can the sermon. There'll be a Christian by soon enough with a cyber-pamphlet.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I should have added -

Why are you not bothered about ceasing to 'be'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sometimes. But since I can't do anything about it, I shelve it. And I'm a very long-term thinker and an agnostic, so I have faith in our descendants solving all the issues concerned with this universe and being able to construct something infinite. Icy comfort but it's the best I could do for myself.

Mortality, like many other things, befuddles human logic, so you have religion and other outlets.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Spend a couple hours reading up on the Transhumanist movement. Wiki page for a start

There are very strong arguments that you may not ever die. I don't mean in some sort of hand-wavy, "information is never lost and everything is connected" hippie kind of way. I mean it literally. You are living on the cusp of an age in which mankind will be able to overcome death through technological means. Your consciousness may exist indefinitely.

It's certainly not a sure thing, but at 29 if you adopt a healthy and risk averse lifestyle there is a very good chance that you will be alive when these technological advancements occur. Your children have a great chance.
At a glance it may seem loony, but there is a very deep and nuanced body of philosophical and scientific thought devoted to this issue if you look. May give you some hope.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also I should have added -

Why are you not bothered about ceasing to 'be'?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be bothered by it, terribly terribly bothered and the things you are going through are perfectly normal. Ceasing to exist is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a sentient being. The fact that most people take it as axiomatic that this is a necessary aspect of the human condition is terrifying and defeatist. There is no reason aging shouldn't be irradiated in the near future like the disease it is. Unless technological progress is artificially or catastrophically halted this is inevitable. The actions we take as a society will determine whether this new phase in human development comes in 50 years or 300.

You are completely right to be upset about this, but instead of being depressed get energized and proactive, because their is hope. Do some online research into the possibility of indefinite health-spans within your lifetime and if you're convinced its a possibility focus your energies into educating others and committing resources to that goal.

p.s.

Come to think of it, most people DO NOT actually take it as axiomatic that dying is a necessary part of the human condition. Most people are theistic and believe in some sort of "life after death". Quite the coping mechanism I'd say. For those of us who are rational, we do not have that luxury. Luckily we've born in a time in which its conceivable that true immortality might be achieved.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Nothing would please me more than finding a 'solution', and that is obviously my motive, but I am not sure that my condition is cureable.


[/ QUOTE ]

1 Corinthians 15:
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Fortuna,

Drinking = Smoking. Discuss.

That is not a throw away comment BTW.

I appreciate everything you say, however I believe it may be a bigger issue for me as I remember the first time I cried because I was gonna die was when I was twelve (I think) when Freddie Mercury died, my mum's hero. I really look up to people like you, and madnack and Phil, that can look at life logically and not be phased by the fact that in 1000 years nothing you do counts.

I Know that everything I do counts for my daughter (eg) and that it matters 100%. I do everything possible to raise my kids the best way I can. A good analogy is of the 1,000,000 starfish on the beach all drying out in the sun. I care for the starfish I can, but that doesn't make my life any more significant, does it?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing would please me more than finding a 'solution', and that is obviously my motive, but I am not sure that my condition is cureable.


[/ QUOTE ]

1 Corinthians 15:
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did find your post stirring, but as someone that lives in the logical, tangible world, please elaborate in a way that I can reach.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing would please me more than finding a 'solution', and that is obviously my motive, but I am not sure that my condition is cureable.


[/ QUOTE ]

1 Corinthians 15:
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


2 Timothy 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

[/ QUOTE ]


I did find your post stirring, but as someone that lives in the logical, tangible world, please elaborate in a way that I can reach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, check out Transhumanism with an open mind (which doesn't sound like a problem for you). It may change your whole outlook on life in a way consistent with a rational world-view.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

AWoodside,

I LOVE the theory you speak of.

Indeed it is clearly the ideal I search for, but in the next 40 years? I think that is a stretch, not that I am phoo phooing it.

Also, what of birth rates under such a scheme?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

It seems you are saying that something temporary can have no value. I dont think this is true and consider many fleeting experiences through my life to be amongst the most valuable (even though they're now gone, never to be repeated).

Perhaps a useful strategy for you would be to examine the premise that only eternal things have any value. If you reject that, perhaps you will come to believe your life has value even though it is temporary.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

hitch just so u know theres probably some middleground between living forever in heaven and living forever as some sort of robot vampire that hasnt been discussed yet

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

I had an ex with this problem. I couldn't solve it so I'm sure I can't solve yours. It's strange how many girls have talked to me about being suicidal, wanting to kill themselves because they think no one likes them or they can't function in the world and so on. And yet the girl who was depressed about the fact that she would die one day I found far more depressing.

I don't know why I have no fear of death. I'm not really sure that I believe it's an end to consciousness. But I'm not confident that it's not and the thought doesn't scare or depress me.
[ QUOTE ]
Ceasing to exist is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a sentient being.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this at all. It may be true for some, but I'd rather not exist than exist in misery.


This line of thinking about consciousness can lead to some interesting thought experiments. E.g.
What is 'me'? Why is 'my' consciousness this body or 'in' this body? If my parents had not had sex or had sex at a different time would 'I' be someone else? It's hard to verbalize my thoughts on consciousness, but they do make me skeptical of there being no self that exists independent of the body. Most here will probably disagree.

i think you are wrong
 

i think your view of the world is flawed- not the idea that there is no afterlife, or the idea that the world is infinite - but i think you place too much eternal importance on your "self" (including your family).

try to separate your philosophical thought from your biological desires. every thing "you" are - your pain, your desires, your love for your children, is biological. that doesn't cheapen it - it's OK to be human and seek human desires/causes. in fact, everything worth doing falls under this category. embrace being human...because it is what YOU are.

but, at the same time, you have the ability to concieve of the world beyond "yourself". does it pain you that when "you" die, this world might continue? couldn't it bring you joy instead?

it seems to me that consciousness is not unique to the biological me (meaning the living guy with my name, born on my birthday). if we assume that it isn't - that it exists in some form beyond me, what are the implications?

im not exactly sure, obviously...but consider a this campfire conversation i was once part of:

girl #1: i believe in reincarnation. (she gave no logical reason for believing it, other than wanting to believe it)
girl #2: me too! i want to come back as a cat
me (jokingly): as a cat, will you remember your life as girl #2?
girl #2: probably not
stoner guy: then will it really be you?

this was a sort of epiphany for me, because it pointed out a logical flaw in the way most of us view ourselves relative to the world. i don't think i can put it into words, so here's hoping it hit you too.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fortuna,

Drinking = Smoking. Discuss.

That is not a throw away comment BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like cigarettes. That's all there is to the habit, really. It doesn't carry the dangers of long-term alcohol abuse. It's surprisingly effective in its destruction. Pot is a more complex situation and varies by individual. It doesn't agree with me anymore.

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate everything you say, however I believe it may be a bigger issue for me as I remember the first time I cried because I was gonna die was when I was twelve (I think) when Freddie Mercury died, my mum's hero. I really look up to people like you, and madnack and Phil, that can look at life logically and not be phased by the fact that in 1000 years nothing you do counts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was 4. Figured it out on my own, and threw a tantrum. Unlike those two, I don't always look at life logically. I prefer to think on much vaster timescales than they do. I'm just pragmatic in that I cannot avoid my own death and figure if there's a solution, it's already there.

I don't mean transhumanism or the optimistic hope that the singularity will occur. It reeks a bit of escapism and denial to me, but more power to them if they get it done.

[ QUOTE ]
I Know that everything I do counts for my daughter (eg) and that it matters 100%. I do everything possible to raise my kids the best way I can. A good analogy is of the 1,000,000 starfish on the beach all drying out in the sun. I care for the starfish I can, but that doesn't make my life any more significant, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is what you make it out to be, how important your life is. How important you value having a fulfilling role in your daughter's life, and her quality of life. Being a great father to her goes a long way towards increasing that. Having the motivation to do so won't be easy some days, but there's probably a feedback effect, the happier and more content she is, the more you will be.

It's not something you can point to, for another person, there's no 'aha' solution about it. What you can take solace in is that it's probably the most difficult problem you'll ever have to resolve on your own. Most people either give up on it or would rather not think about it at all, and you're seeing why.

Re: i think you are wrong
 

interesting post willie. this may make me sound lame, but I used to play this computer game called DotA a lot where you play as one of a large range of diverse, but (at least somewhat) balanced characters... and I sometimes like to think of my biological 'self' as a character that 'I' am playing, which has its own unique strengths and weaknesses.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not something you can point to, for another person, there's no 'aha' solution about it. What you can take solace in is that it's probably the most difficult problem you'll ever have to resolve on your own. Most people either give up on it or would rather not think about it at all, and you're seeing why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to bed now, and will post more, but right now I have to add 1 thing.

Why is my wife (Whom I have touched upon this subject with) so happy? Seriously?

We have discussed it, and she is content without dealing with the issues I have raised. I think that is actually the crux of the issue. Does nobody else see the issue?

I genuinely beliive that if you could prove there was no free will I would polarize. I would either go out raping, or would never leave my bed.

^^ To me that is 100% logical.

DUCY?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I did find your post stirring, but as someone that lives in the logical, tangible world, please elaborate in a way that I can reach.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Christianity is illogical. I think a universe without meaning is the definition of illogical.

As far as tangible, we have thousands of manuscripts of the Bible and in the Bible it tells us of the physical resurrection of Christ - He had a body, He could be touched, He ate food and spoke audibly. And the Bible tells us we will have a similar experience, be given a similar body.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I genuinely beliive that if you could prove there was no free will I would polarize. I would either go out raping, or would never leave my bed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I would put it in terms of the existence of God because the free will of a finite being remains as meaningless as the determined will of a finite being. But because God exists and created us, we have meaning.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't mean transhumanism or the optimistic hope that the singularity will occur. It reeks a bit of escapism and denial to me, but more power to them if they get it done.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is certainly an understandable position to take, and many Transhumanists would agree with what (I assume) is at the root of your statement: That it's a long shot. I put my odds at making it to a "Singularity" type event (I don't particularly like that word but it's proved to be a pretty powerful meme) at around 20 percent or so. I'm 25 years old. There are large and difficult to manipulate social, scientific, economic, and technological currents moving us in this direction which are functionally out of my control. What is in my control is my own personal health and economic means. I believe I can shift my personal probabilities quite a bit by adopting a hyper-healthy lifestyle, minimizing my exposure to risk of bodily injury, and accumulating as much wealth as possible. Certainly my 20 percent figure could be too high (or too low) and I'm willing to shift if based on new evidence. By and large I think I take a fairly rational approach to the whole thing. The payoff of reaching a singularity type event is so absurdly large that its clearly a highly positive expected value move to make significant lifestyle changes if it will make you alive, wealthy, and healthy 10 or 20 years longer than you would be otherwise.

I realize you weren't saying anything about me specifically, just wanted to point out that in my case it's a rational decision that doesn't involve escapism nor denial (I recognize that I may have subconscious psychological biases that are functionally the equivalent, but I do at least attempt to proactively eliminate these). Also, I think you'd be surprised at the fraction of transhumanists that have a similarly level-headed and thoughtful approach.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I genuinely beliive that if you could prove there was no free will I would polarize. I would either go out raping, or would never leave my bed.

^^ To me that is 100% logical.

DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if that's the way you want to live your life. You want to be a rapist?, if not why on earth would you go out and rape? and what's free-will got to do with it?

BTW I think you're seriously on the wrong track and are not feeling depressed because you don't believe in an afterlife.

chez

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is my wife (Whom I have touched upon this subject with) so happy? Seriously?

We have discussed it, and she is content without dealing with the issues I have raised. I think that is actually the crux of the issue. Does nobody else see the issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

Around SMP you'll find many do see the issue. They deal with it differently on an individual basis, but such thought about the situations surrounding mortality occur at a higher % here than in the general population.

Perhaps she simply doesn't find it a topic worth thinking too much about like the majority. If you polled people and asked what they thought about the topic, you'd probably find many don't or have pat answers like God or w/e.

It's an intellectual riddle, because the more you think about it the more your sense of scale of such things and comparsions become skewed, especially when you invoke infinity and the size of the Universe. Most people truly do lack the capability to think on such scales, and they are sometimes to be envied that bliss.

You'll be fine though, man. It happens.

NR,

Meaning to who exactly? The individual himself or God? Because that is the issue OP faces. Your last statement needs more depth.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I genuinely beliive that if you could prove there was no free will I would polarize. I would either go out raping, or would never leave my bed.

^^ To me that is 100% logical.

DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Can you explain?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
AWoodside,

I LOVE the theory you speak of.

Indeed it is clearly the ideal I search for, but in the next 40 years? I think that is a stretch, not that I am phoo phooing it.

Also, what of birth rates under such a scheme?

[/ QUOTE ]

Realize that the state of medical technology will be very different 40 years from now. We do not have to reach the "Singularity" (many definitions of this term, for our purposes here I mean it as the point at which, barring extraordinary circumstances, you will be able to live indefinitely) in that time frame, but only increase your expected lifespan enough to make it to the next major medical breakthrough. There is already work being done in many areas in this field, notably the manipulation of telomeres, that has the potential to eliminate the "natural" aging process. Technological advancement has followed a strikingly exponential trend, and there is strong evidence that this will continue in the foreseeable future. Even if technological progress leveled of within the next decade, it would not be shocking if your life expectancy was 300+ years. That's a lot of time to make progress.

As for birth rates, I think this is a largely self-regulating phenomenon. People simply don't (by and large, of course there are exceptions) have children that they can't support. If you have the resources to support a child it is almost self evident that doing so will not contribute to "overpopulation" problems. Look at the majority of first world countries where birth/death rates have basically equalized. In poorer countries where birthrates/deathrates are very high it is often because the families cannot afford NOT to have children. Parents need as many as possible to lower their risk of ruin in old age, and to help with the subsistence farming or whatever it is they're doing. Population levels will find an equilibrium that reflects the current economic conditions, as they always have.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I realize you weren't saying anything about me specifically, just wanted to point out that in my case it's a rational decision that doesn't involve escapism nor denial (I recognize that I may have subconscious psychological biases that are functionally the equivalent, but I do at least attempt to proactively eliminate these). Also, I think you'd be surprised at the fraction of transhumanists that have a similarly level-headed and thoughtful approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only indirectly, and no harm meant really. It's just that I take a longer view of what such things will mean for the species. Once your singularity happens, what remains is to resolve the issue of bringing the dead back. When you're immortal and have uncountable millennia to resolve what's left of the Universe, you have expansion and then retrival.

I agree that transhumanists are by and far rational, at least moreso than Christians, who prefer to leave the solution to a unseen God. And reducing/minimizing risk and making sure you're on the front wave of such a shift in humanity is understandable.

But if it will happen anyway, taking any approach has an equal chance of getting you there.

Have you ever thought about how to fill the centuries? Millennia perhaps? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] The range of interests and depth of understanding simply isn't that deep and broad. But better to be there than not, right?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize you weren't saying anything about me specifically, just wanted to point out that in my case it's a rational decision that doesn't involve escapism nor denial (I recognize that I may have subconscious psychological biases that are functionally the equivalent, but I do at least attempt to proactively eliminate these). Also, I think you'd be surprised at the fraction of transhumanists that have a similarly level-headed and thoughtful approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only indirectly, and no harm meant really. It's just that I take a longer view of what such things will mean for the species. Once your singularity happens, what remains is to resolve the issue of bringing the dead back. When you're immortal and have uncountable millennia to resolve what's left of the Universe, you have expansion and then retrival.

I agree that transhumanists are by and far rational, at least moreso than Christians, who prefer to leave the solution to a unseen God. And reducing/minimizing risk and making sure you're on the front wave of such a shift in humanity is understandable.

But if it will happen anyway, taking any approach has an equal chance of getting you there.

Have you ever thought about how to fill the centuries? Millennia perhaps? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] The range of interests and depth of understanding simply isn't that deep and broad. But better to be there than not, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it wont necessarily happen. If the singularity occurred in the year, say, 2070, my lifestyle choices would have a huge barring on whether or not I made it. I agree that there are murky philosophical and metaphysical issues involved with applications of future technology to thing live reviving the dead. I'm signed up with a cryogenic freezing insurance policy myself, although I don't put much stock in it. As they say, "being cryogenically frozen is the second worst thing you can be" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As for filling the time, this is honestly the least of my worries. You seem like a quite intelligent fellow, and I'm confident that if you spent a relatively small amount of mental energy and imagination on the issue you could come up with a plethora of ways in which to spend 10, 100, even 1000 current lifetimes. With the augmented intelligence and perceptual capability that is sure to come with technological progress in the singularity-age (assuming we get there) this will only become easier. And, ultimately, if I ever find myself at the point where I feel like I've exhausted all the personally meaningful avenues the universe has to offer I have no moral qualms with simply offing myself. I can't really imagine that happening for a long long time though (we're talking heat death of the universe timescales).

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

the value of life cannot be estimated

also, antidepressants help, and I'm not being funny.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

btw life necessarily has meaning, eg something provoked OP to make this post. the question is whether or not life has a given meaning. but life can be plenty meaningful without a given meaning. just try it sometime.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Why is this thread still going?

Didn't Not Ready put this to rest?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

edit: nvm i forgot 3/8 of this board believes in goblins

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

I doubt death is really the source of your fear/discomfort.

You didn't exist for roughly 13.5 billion years of the universe's known lifetime. Does imagining that dark hitch1978-less time terrify you? Probably not. For 6-9 hours every day, you have little to no conscious awareness of your being. Does the idea of sleep terrify you? Probably not.

To me, inevitable death is a great comfort, so I certainly can't delve any deeper into the psychology of the matter. But the subject brings some Nietzsche to mind:

[ QUOTE ]
The certain prospect of death could sweeten every life with a precious and fragrant drop of levity---and now you strange apothecary souls have turned it into an ill-tasting drop of poison that makes the whole of life repulsive.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he was wrong about this, why so?

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize you weren't saying anything about me specifically, just wanted to point out that in my case it's a rational decision that doesn't involve escapism nor denial (I recognize that I may have subconscious psychological biases that are functionally the equivalent, but I do at least attempt to proactively eliminate these). Also, I think you'd be surprised at the fraction of transhumanists that have a similarly level-headed and thoughtful approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only indirectly, and no harm meant really. It's just that I take a longer view of what such things will mean for the species. Once your singularity happens, what remains is to resolve the issue of bringing the dead back. When you're immortal and have uncountable millennia to resolve what's left of the Universe, you have expansion and then retrival.

I agree that transhumanists are by and far rational, at least moreso than Christians, who prefer to leave the solution to a unseen God. And reducing/minimizing risk and making sure you're on the front wave of such a shift in humanity is understandable.

But if it will happen anyway, taking any approach has an equal chance of getting you there.

Have you ever thought about how to fill the centuries? Millennia perhaps? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] The range of interests and depth of understanding simply isn't that deep and broad. But better to be there than not, right?

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Well, it wont necessarily happen. If the singularity occurred in the year, say, 2070, my lifestyle choices would have a huge barring on whether or not I made it. I agree that there are murky philosophical and metaphysical issues involved with applications of future technology to thing live reviving the dead. I'm signed up with a cryogenic freezing insurance policy myself, although I don't put much stock in it. As they say, "being cryogenically frozen is the second worst thing you can be" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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It would be a problem without solution and a solution would be tried. And it'd be a very challenging problem, even moreso than any expansion or population issues. Long-term view. At least cryogenics is a hedge with only positive benefit.

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As for filling the time, this is honestly the least of my worries. You seem like a quite intelligent fellow, and I'm confident that if you spent a relatively small amount of mental energy and imagination on the issue you could come up with a plethora of ways in which to spend 10, 100, even 1000 current lifetimes. With the augmented intelligence and perceptual capability that is sure to come with technological progress in the singularity-age (assuming we get there) this will only become easier. And, ultimately, if I ever find myself at the point where I feel like I've exhausted all the personally meaningful avenues the universe has to offer I have no moral qualms with simply offing myself. I can't really imagine that happening for a long long time though (we're talking heat death of the universe timescales).

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I already have, and basically realized I'd rather have the option of true immortality or I'd live out what my biology gives me, with the risks I choose to take. Several additional centuries wouldn't do the job for me. I take a rather simple approach to day to day life and would probably not get bored, but people seeking greater and greater challenges would.

Augumented intelligence I'd rather pass on though, and come to those conclusions on my own. It's personal bias, preferring to come to conclusions honestly and through my own effort rather than through technological aids.

It's good you have no moral qualms about suicide in such a scenario, because it would probably be the highest, if not only cause of death in such an illusory paradise. Illusory because there would be plenty of problems with the initial generations, a couple of which have been mentioned already in the thread.

Like you, I'd rather have the opportunity, but I realize it doesn't matter if it happens in '70 or in 2170, because it either happens and continues to accelerate, or we don't quite get there.

And maybe that's laziness on my part, but I recognize I don't need to be proactive in such a scenario, and if it happens, so be it. What's for certain is you take a healthier approach to getting there with more redundancy.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

I do miss junk food a lot though imo [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

PRECISELY because you believe/know that there is no afterlife, there is really nothing to fear in death.

Imagine that there really was an afterlife... Now you'd have all kinds of things to worry about. Will the Supreme Creator like you enough? Or will He send you to an eternal dungeon where you will suffer, and writh, and cry in agony, forever and ever until the end of time? How scary is THAT? And even if you yourself pass the muster, you have all this to worry about for your friends, family and loved ones as well. No THAT should depress you!

But forunately, you're wise enough not to fall for all that crap. So what is there to be depressed about or afraid of when you die? Nothing... Absolutely nothing. Think about all the thousands of years before you were born. Was that so hard for you? In the year 1573 were you afraid? Depressed? Did you have any uncomfort at all? Didn't think so... The year 2203 will be exactly the same, as will all the years after that. But here's what you SHOULD do...

Make the most of your life now. Love your children. Spend time with them and your family. Enjoy every minute with them that you can. Yes, it will end as all things must do, but you won't know it, so there's nothing to fear. What you should fear is stagnating in life. Don't waste it!

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

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Imagine that there really was an afterlife... Now you'd have all kinds of things to worry about. Will the Supreme Creator like you enough? Or will He send you to an eternal dungeon where you will suffer, and writh, and cry in agony, forever and ever until the end of time? How scary is THAT? And even if you yourself pass the muster, you have all this to worry about for your friends, family and loved ones as well. No THAT should depress you!

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Small sample size here, but every Christian I know, figures hell is a pretty simple place for them to avoid. They don’t sit around and worry about themselves, so much as about unbelievers like me. I’m on half a dozen prayer lists, and it still hasn’t remedied me from this current losing streak.

P.S. I know you are addressing Hitch, who sounds like an unbeliever, so he has plenty to worry about I suppose. As for me, I so thoroughly don't believe in Hell, that I never give it a moments thought.

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

Hey Hitch, does this help at all?

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Holding on to what you want to believe is fine -- there's nothing wrong with making a choice in that regard. But you really shouldn't do it out of fear.

Your consciousness will remain every bit a part of reality, even in the most atheistic sense. The distinction between future, past, and present is somewhat misunderstood -- they're all a part of the same state of the universe. You should not think of death as "an event which causes you not to be" -- you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.


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Metric

Re: L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.
 

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I don't think Christianity is illogical. I think a universe without meaning is the definition of illogical.

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I think if he listens to your twisted version of Christianity, he'll only become even more depressed than he already is. Right now he's depressed because he believes that he'll one day blink into nothingness. However, if he starts believing what you have to say, he'll realize that rather than nothingess, he has an eternity of hell-fire to look forward to.