advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

I've used New York Sports Clubs for a while, mostly for their elliptical machines and some of their nautilus machines (which they label their Xpress line (meant for beginners). Because I recognize that the Xpress line machines aren't optimal, I scheduled a session with a trainer to show me the proper way to use free weights and suggest a lifting program. I am essentially a free weight newbie.

When I spoke to this guy briefly on the phone, he asked if I would be willing to try other machines they have, as a transition to free weights. I said sure, I'll try whatever he recommends, but now I wonder whether I should just go straight to free weights.

I can't find pictures of the machines, but the website here describes them as follows:

Secondary - less stable
pin-selected weight or plate-loaded weight
independent movement
unilateral converging
cables stable base
cables unstable base

All of this is supposedly distinct from the "primary" or more stable machines I have been using.

So my questions are:

(1) Should I insist on learning free weights first, or are these machines a reasonable transition?
(2) Regardless of the equipment I use, what exercises and movements should I make sure to learn?
(3) Anything else I should ask this guy?

Keep in mind that I assume that this guy has little advanced expertise, though perhaps I'm wrong about that. He didn't sound very impressive when we spoke briefly over the phone. I figure that so long as I learn the proper motions, I can always return here for advice (or links) about the actual routines I should use.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Insist on using free weights.

Ask him to teach you how to squat, deadlift, bench-press, military-press and row. Make sure he's squatting deep (past parallel).

If he says no to any of these, laugh in his face and go to a real gym. Or hire an olympic powerlifting coach for a couple of sessions.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

you could learn all of this stuff on your own and it would allow your workouts make more sense to you

at least don't hire him long term, hire him until you have an idea of what you're doing.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

This is a weird exchange. You call him up expressly to find someone to check you off/teach you some free weight movements and he says, perfect!, I've got a special machine for folks like you.

edit to add: Maybe it isn't clear. I wouldn't give such a person my business.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

I'm not planning on hiring him long-term. But I do think I need hands-on assistance in learning proper form.

Do these people have any training whatsoever, or are they merely people who appear reasonably fit and like to workout themselves?

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

they probably took a weekend certification course...although there are solid trainers out there that are well educated (rare)...make sure he does what you want (free weights) and if he cant then don't pay him...

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

wynton, im not sure why someone needs to transition to free weights. if one is having difficulty w/ the weight amt doing free weights, the solution is use less weight rather than change the exercise.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

http://www.mysportsclubs.com/NR/rdon...1/0/FitMap.gif

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Yeah, Rootabager has the correct summary of each program NYSC pushes. I anticipate the trainer will push program 2, but in light of the replies here, I will instead ask for instruction on free weights (program 3).

If a "transition" really is unnecessary, then I'm guessing that these programs get pushed for business purposes. For example, maybe the trainer figures I'll purchase more sessions if I agree to a transitional stage before moving on (since presumably I'd have to get instruction on both separately).

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

i can only guess, but i would guess that machine based programs are pushed because the trainers aren't educated enough to properly instruct on free weight techniques and have no skill in proper program design...

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Machines are usually reserved for the lazy, ignorant, or injured.

There is nothing "advanced" about free weights. They are just the simplest most effective modes of working your muscles when compared to gimmicky hi-tech looking machines. Machines just try to mimic the natural range of motion your going through when using freeweights. I find them to be quite inhibiting of my movement depending on the excercise being done.

It is a good idea if your new to learn proper form for the major lifts like wolfram mentioned, but this should be accomplished in the first couple sessions and then you can cut your trainer loose.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can only guess, but i would guess that machine based programs are pushed because the trainers aren't educated enough to properly instruct on free weight techniques and have no skill in proper program design...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would make the same guess and avoid the trainer for this very reason.

Btw, the original exchange reminded me of: Do you have anything without ANY spam in it?

--Well, the spam, eggs, sausage, and spam doesn't have much spam in it.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Could be a liability thing too for these gym chains. If they actually encourage free weights and people do them and get hurt they might get sued.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

for some reason I cant edit... Add beginners to the mix of regular machine users.


Also, if you didnt get a word in before he asked you to try out the machines then thats one thing, but if you told him you wanted to be trained with FW's first and then he told you to try something different, then he probably has some agenda of his own for doing so. These machines don't require a special membership or something do they?

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

I'm pretty sure that the machines do not require a separate membership. The only clear economic incentive I see at work here is that the personal trainer presumably would like me to buy additional sessions with him.

At this point, all I can do is try him out and hope he provides basic instruction about proper form. Without knowing anyone specific there, I'm not in a position to reject or accept whoever they set me up with. And this was never intended to be anything other than a 1 or 2-shot deal.

Perhaps I should have looked into the possibility of a trainer not associated with the club directly.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
the original exchange reminded me of: Do you have anything without ANY spam in it?

--Well, the spam, eggs, sausage, and spam doesn't have much spam in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was kind of like that. In fairness, the guy merely asked if I would consider these other machines; not knowing any better, I said I'd be open-minded to anything. But even with my limited knowledge, it raised a red flag to me that he was even proposing more machines.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should have looked into the possibility of a trainer not associated with the club directly.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are programs trainers go through which allows them to put impressive looking initials after their name. i dont have the foggiest idea what the different programs are and what means they might have had longer than 1 week worth of training but perhaps someone might be able to shed some light on it or direct where to look.

you mention looking elsewhere, craigslist always has posts from trainers. perhaps you could shop around on that in your area and be able to interview the trainers a bit more before you decide on whom to use..

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a weird exchange. You call him up expressly to find someone to check you off/teach you some free weight movements and he says, perfect!, I've got a special machine for folks like you.

edit to add: Maybe it isn't clear. I wouldn't give such a person my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. I'm finding it kind of hard to picture a useful transition of any sort too.

In fact I think delaying the move to weights is a bad idea. You want to learn your balance and form and flexibility when you're still doing light weights, not when you're developed enough to be doing serious loads, especially the kind that can mess up your back if your form isn't quite there or degrades as you get tired.

It sounds like all you'll be doing is building in either bad habits or patterns of neuromuscular coordination that simply won't apply. You don't want to get things like balance "almost" right. That does you no favors at all and is actually potentially harmful.

Better to start at the beginning without any fancy sidesteps.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

go in there and say hey I am going to start doing 5X5.

These are the exercises in 5x5.
bench,dip,squat,deadlift, shoulder press, bent over row, etc.

I want to learn to do these correctly.

I also am interested in the olympic lifts.

This is what I want you to teach me.

If that takes 2 classes so be it.

Then you wont need him anymore.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

ok, so i learned how to lift weights *kind of* back in the early years of highschool, maybe late middle school. Like 7 or 8 years ago.

It isn't hard AT ALL. just watch videos online, try and copy it, make sure nothings hurting, and don't kill yourself with heavy weights for a while. i really don't think anyone needs professional help to learn how to lift weights properly.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so i learned how to lift weights *kind of* back in the early years of highschool, maybe late middle school. Like 7 or 8 years ago.

It isn't hard AT ALL. just watch videos online, try and copy it, make sure nothings hurting, and don't kill yourself with heavy weights for a while. i really don't think anyone needs professional help to learn how to lift weights properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things.

1) Stop giving advice.
2) You are the guy shemp, smiley, and I laugh at while we sit around and max our Turkish get ups.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, so i learned how to lift weights *kind of* back in the early years of highschool, maybe late middle school. Like 7 or 8 years ago.

It isn't hard AT ALL. just watch videos online, try and copy it, make sure nothings hurting, and don't kill yourself with heavy weights for a while. i really don't think anyone needs professional help to learn how to lift weights properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things.

1) Stop giving advice.
2) You are the guy shemp, smiley, and I laugh at while we sit around and max our Turkish get ups.

[/ QUOTE ]

tone it down on the condescension BUCKO.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, so i learned how to lift weights *kind of* back in the early years of highschool, maybe late middle school. Like 7 or 8 years ago.

It isn't hard AT ALL. just watch videos online, try and copy it, make sure nothings hurting, and don't kill yourself with heavy weights for a while. i really don't think anyone needs professional help to learn how to lift weights properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things.

1) Stop giving advice.
2) You are the guy shemp, smiley, and I laugh at while we sit around and max our Turkish get ups.

[/ QUOTE ]

tone it down on the condescension BUCKO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you have an obscure perverse sex thread somewhere that is being left unattended?

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Well, here's a little trip report.

The trainer I mentioned earlier had to cancel, so I found another one. With this guy, I made it crystal clear I wanted to learn proper form with free weights. Initially, I was reassured that this guy was pretty knowledgeable, if for no other reason, he took several opportunities to tell me he had been doing this for decades and understood proper form. But a red flag came up when he also told me right away that it would take a lot more than 1 session to do what I wanted.

Without anyone else to turn to on short notice, I went through with the session. After a brief discussion of one issue I have with my knees, he had me perform certain motions purportedly designed to display how much flexibility I had. Next thing I know, this became the entire focus of the session. Somehow the entire time was devoted to my performing various flexibility or stretching routines, with barely any use of weights. The only thing we did that used weights at all was one version of a leg press machine (and the point of that was to stretch the hamstring). Bottom line is that I found the entire experience to be a waste of time, though I also concede that he might be good for someone who wants their hands held for months.

The good news is that he didn't charge me, evidently because he assumed it would bring him good will, especially since he was late to begin with, and he figured I'd be coming back.

At this point, I am tempted to just watch some videos and figure out proper form for myself, even though I suspect it is a bad idea in the long run.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

wynton

chum it up with people in the gym working out. watch them and ask them to watch you and spot you. i dont care if its just the bar you are trying to put up. no shame in doing things correctly so you don't hurt yourself.

this costs nothing.

and for squats make sure you arent placing the bar at the base of your neck. you should be supporting it with the groove your shoulders/deltoids make when you bring your arms back like little wings. also dont be vain and look in the mirror when you squat. look up to help keep your balance.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

wynton,
I'd say go to one more session then report back. I'm not really sure if his checking your flexibility was bad. It could go either way. plz to be reporting back.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

why dont you go back with a list like someone else had suggested?

Heres one that would at least start you off and could be done in an hour.

deadlift
barbell squat
bench press or dumbell chest press
cable row or bent over barbell row
barbell shoulder press or dumbell shoulder press

tell him you want to do one set of each with light weight at first to learn the movements.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

So, on a whim this morning, I called and found a different trainer available. (I didn't really consider it an option to go back to the same guy, if for no other reason, that he spent way too much time talking about himself for my personal taste.)

Anyway, I made it quite clear at the outset to this guy that I wanted FREE WEIGHTS. After completing some forms, though, he said he wanted to show me some of those "secondary" machines also. I said fine, as long as we get to the free weights too.

Inexplicably to me, we then spent most of the hour going over machines, albeit ones which were supposed to be a much closer experience to free weights than what I had done before. As this was happening, I was just reconciling myself to the apparent fact that NYSC personnel, for whatever reason, have trouble deviating from this particular "transitional approach." Later, he elaborated that I should be able to move on to nothing but free weights within a few months, once I felt the motions were more natural. I suppose I could have kept arguing with him, but I didn't think that would be a productive use of the time. (Believe me, sometimes people are so committed to an approach that their minds really can't be changed.)

In addition, I was content that, unlike the first guy, this person was at least moving through the machines quickly and giving me common sense advice about proper form. In total, he showed me about 10 exercises. Of those, the only ones that were truly with free weights were a bench press and bicep curl. The machines included ones for:

squats
leg curl (for hamstring)
leg press (which incorporated a stretch in the middle)
hip abducter (and another hip one, going in opposite direction),
chest fly
shoulder press
triceps (with a cable machine)
pull down (for lats)

Note, I asked specifically whether a dead lift would be good for me at this stage, and he didn't think so.

At this point, I'm actually content. It so happens that I've been shown true squats by someone else, which means that I have at least 3 free weight type exercises I'm comfortable doing right now. And my plan is to substitute free weights for the other exercises gradually, casually enlisting the assistance of the trainers who happen to be nearby at the time.

Since each of these training sessions have been free, I can't complain too much. Considering I was doing virtually no lifting before, perhaps a little transition phase to free weights is fine. Either way, a few months is not a big deal to me.

Only thing that bothers me about the end result is that I strongly suspect my time could be used more productively. According to this trainer, the upper body stuff he showed me should take about an hour and the lower body stuff about 45 minutes. (This assumes 3 sets of 10-15 reps, resting about 45 seconds in between.) My impression is that many of you here have routines that go faster and are more concentrated.

Anyway, this should be the last of my posts about the great personal trainer experience, at least for a couple of months. Thanks for reading.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

ok first off I can automatically tell that that trainer is dumb because under no circumstance should anyone be put on those adductor and abductor machines. They are among the smallest muscles in your legs and are worked during squats and deadlifts for stabilization. They do not need to be worked in isolation.

Also, if your main goal is to gain mass, stay in between 8-12 reps. If you want strength, go for less reps than that (3-6). Obviously there is a continuum and you will still gain mass with the lower rep range that everyone on here advocates with the 5x5 programs and stuff. Switch it up every now and then so you gain some strength if your mainly going for mass.

The problem with trainers is that there job is to try and sell you months worth of sessions. So they want to start you out on machines and tell you that it will take months to reach your goal. Machines certainly wont hurt you, but try and weave in free weights as much as possible as you become accustomed to the gym. sounds like you have a good plan though. Good luck

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

That guy is a moron. No deadlifts "now"? Then when...and why the delay? Dumb. Leg curl??? WTF??? Hip adductor? Flys when you could be doing benching instead? Tricep isolation work when you could be doing compound movements instead? Curls?

Sounds like you got yet another guy who didn't really listen to you and didn't really care what you wanted. He may well be just doing what his boss tells him to do by recommending you machines, though. Either way, it looks like your needs and interests were not paramount. And ten to 15 reps is definitely working toward the endurance range. Honestly, it sounds like the guy wasn't of much use to you.

At least you got someone to show you a squat. But I wouldn't bother working things like tricep isolation work into your freeweight routine. Those muscles are better used for pressing, and the muscles you use for curls should be getting killed doing rows and pull-ups.

You might also give serious consideration to doing some forearm/grip work, which you haven't touched on yet, and perhaps neck work and maybe shrugs.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

They prolly dont suck as much as they just want you to keep coming and buy more packages. I dont know how to feel about it because they have to do that to make money.

yeah he did def suck for what you wanted.

you should have did what i posted and there would have been no problem.



go in there and say hey I am going to start doing 5X5.

These are the exercises in 5x5.
bench,dip,squat,deadlift, shoulder press, bent over row, etc.

I want to learn to do these correctly.

I also am interested in the olympic lifts.

This is what I want you to teach me.

If that takes 2 classes so be it.

Then you wont need him anymore.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

If the guy is really knowledgeable then it could easily take months to instruct you properly on all the compound lifts. Granted, probably like 1 trainer in 100 would actually know enough to add value 2 months in.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

yeah forall the o-lifts, but for 5X5 he could teach him quick.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Meh, most people have terrible flexibility so it can take a lot longer to get to a *safe* squat. Even that is only the beginning if someone wants to really have great form. And then [censored] O-lifts take years hurgh.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

yea but OP doesnt need O lifts- it wouldnt take long to teach the basics of freeweights. Our world is run by money and unfortunately trainers are in the business of sales and is not in their best interests of showing you everything in one or two sessions. Any knowledgeable trainer is smart enough not to give out all that information for free during 2 free sessions. Gotta pay.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

Squats do take flexibility, and that's one reason deadlifts can be an easy choice as an alternate killer full-body lift. So, if you don't get detailed and competent squat training, all is not lost.

Also, when it comes to how long it takes to teach compound lifts, at least if you get a good teacher it is fantastic stuff to know and not time wasted. I mean, having a guy take 15 minutes to tell you how to do curls on a nautilus machine and work up a program for it would make me very sad. Yet even weeks(or more) spent learning something great just right is awesome and like some kind of gift from God or whatever.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

OP, why are you being so passive in these training sessions? You told these POS you are there to learn the form for the compound movements, when they try to deviate from that stick to your guns, or walk out and say your not paying.

Your paying these guys to teach you and your not getting taught. Quit being a puss.

Re: advice before I meet with a personal trainer
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP, why are you being so passive in these training sessions? You told these POS you are there to learn the form for the compound movements, when they try to deviate from that stick to your guns, or walk out and say your not paying.

Your paying these guys to teach you and your not getting taught. Quit being a puss.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the sessions have been free so far; apparently, NYSC encourages trainers to give a free session, with the hope that the customer will purchase multiple sessions.

Second, the practicalities of the situation just make it simpler to go along with the program. Sure, I tell them I want free weights, and they agree at the outset, hoping I'll consider some other machines too. It seems unreasonable to refuse to listen to ideas, and in truth, I am interested in other views. But it's easy to lose track of time, so 15 minutes of machines can quickly turn into 30-45 minutes.

The other factor at play here is that some people have difficulty deviating from their set routine. Honestly, arguing with this last guy would have been counter-productive and made it an unpleasant experience.

Having said all that, I would have taken a harder line if I was paying actual money.