NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I teach at a medium size Midwestern university. (Hope it's okay that I invade here.) One of my colleagues sent me an email of this article: Many students are coming out of high school not ready for college. I see this myself. I think most of you guys represent a smarter portion of college students, and since I know many of you (in that message board way of "knowing"), I thought I would get your opinions on this.

This is the response I sent my colleague:
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While I am only in my first full year of teaching on the college level, I was once a public school teacher (in Mississippi). I saw teaching being forced to literally "teach to the test." (I was a special education teacher, so I was not required to do this.) IMO this seems to suppress critical thinking and abstract thinking skills that are so important to succeeding on a college level.

Sometimes I am simply amazed at the gibberish I get when students turn in papers. Not only can many of them not write a coherent sentences, but they can't even think well.

While I am only in my first year of teaching at this level, my mother is also a Ph.D. She tells me that this problem has been getting worse over the past several years -- students, she contends, are just getting dumber and dumber (though she puts it much less bluntly than that). We both believe this is, at least partially, the result of increasing reliance on standardized testing in our public schools as benchmarks to "success".

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Feel free to share your relevant thoughts or experiences.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I'm a HS senior right now, and I agree that standardized testing distracts students and teachers from learning. In our school, they spend weeks before the state tests teaching us "test-taking strategies" and trying to motivate us to actually try hard so they can get funding from the state. Unfortuantely we learn nothing useful.

Also, nobody knows how to write anymore. When we peer edit each others papers I'm amazed at the lack of ability to spell, use grammar, or write a complete sentence. If they can't do this, how can they be expected to do things like effectively analyze evidence? I think the problem is there aren't enough writing assignments. For example, in my senior english class we wrote two papers the whole term, while every night we'd have some sort of pointless worksheet to do. Then when people get to college they can't handle writing papers on a consistent basis.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I will tell you this -- and this is just the truth: from your post I can tell you write better than 90+% of the students.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

Thanks, hopefully I'll be part of that 25% that's ready for college.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I think this is a problem that starts long before high school, so I wouldn't put all of the blame on standardized tests.

Here's a wacky theory:
Coming to college is becoming a more and more common thing. In the past, going to college was considered a big step up and a big deal; nowadays, NOT going to college is considered pretty bad. Maybe more and more people who would have opted out of extra school in the past are being socially pressured into going now, and this is the consequence.

But yeah high school classes suck IMO and do little to help develop abstract thought. I say we force the students to shape up or fail them.

But it goes beyond writing too. When I was a TA for a physical geography class I was simply amazed at how difficult it could be to explain concepts like a rain shadow or angle of sun declination to people, and how they would just memorize what happens instead of gain a real understanding for why it happens. IMO the second way is MUCH easier and more rewarding, but our education system has taught people--even the fully capable ones--just to memorize.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

The standardized tests are not the cause of this, the article clearly points out that the problem is you can label a course anything you want, but whether or not it contains what it needs to is another matter. The idea behind the standardized tests is, schools shouldn't be able to get away with this any longer, as everyone is held accountable to the same standard, regardless of what their courses are titled.

I am transitioning to teaching (physics) and I can tell you based on what I have observed so far, the idea that students are being held to low standards is very true in some districts. I observed in an almost all-black district and the courses were pathetic. What was being taught was boring, low-level, and not being taught well. The teacher certainly meant well, so whether she felt compelled to teach at that low a level, I don't know, but she was also teaching outside her area of training. Something seemed missing in a lot of the kids as well, like they hadn't been taught the basics somewhere along the line.

In contrast, I've also seen excellent schools, where students really do do top level work. There are screw-up kids here too, but they don't let them dominate the classroom. So it's possible to teach the kids, but some schools clearly do a better job than others. But the standardized tests have little to do with it.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

Good thoughts Mon. I think there is a lot of truth to what you say about kids not being taught well in certain school districts. In a lot of cases I blame parents. Many kids never really see books until they go to school, are not read to, or taught to read at a young age by their parents. That is certainly not the school's fault. Also, many schools in the US just plain suck. IMO we have both the best public schools in the world, and some of the worst (huge standard deviation).

However, it seems things are getting worse, and while I did not mean to imply monocausality, I do think standardized testing is at least one culprit.

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The idea behind the standardized tests is, schools shouldn't be able to get away with this any longer, as everyone is held accountable to the same standard, regardless of what their courses are titled.

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Yes that is the IDEA BEHIND them. In reality -- and this is just my opinion -- kids are learning to think discreetly instead of narratively. They come into college with a "multiple choice" mindset. Teaching with the goal of doing well on standardized tests means less emphasis on developing abstract thinking and instead makes students focus on rudimentary decision making. While there are some bad schools out there to be sure, this emphasis on standardization is, IMO, a lowering tide that sinks all boats.

That said, perhaps standardization could be done that tests abstract, critical thinking. I am not necessarily against standardization itself, though I do think it suboptimal. However, I am wholeheartedly against the way it is being implemented. I think the system could be tweaked in ways that would make teaching to the test virtually impossible.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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That said, perhaps standardization could be done that tests abstract, critical thinking. I am not necessarily against standardization itself, though I do think it suboptimal. However, I am wholeheartedly against the way it is being implemented. I think the system could be tweaked in ways that would make teaching to the test virtually impossible.

[/ QUOTE ] The racial sensitivity nuts wouldn't like this at all. Teaching to the test makes the 'standard deviation,' as you call it, appear to be a good deal lower, which helps really abominable schools not look quite so bad. One this tweaking occurs, grades will plummet for poor, disproportionately black schools, and PC activists will throw up the racist-test flag.

Also most people in power have no interest in revealing how bad the problem truly is.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I don't think standardized tests to test for abstract thinking on a widespread basis are really practical, nor are they truly possible. A test for that really can't be accurately tested by multiple choice test. And essay testing really is difficult to grade consistently on a mass basis. So that type of testing is best left to a classroom teacher.

I think most people misunderstand the idea behind standardized testing, including much of the teaching community. It measures one aspect of learning well, basic factual knowledge. But that's not where knowledge ends, rather, it's where it begins, so what the standardized tests are doing is providing a floor, one that says you need to know these things AT A MINIMUM.

All this talk about kids needing to learn how to think critically and abstractly, that's great, but the kids need to know something to think about before they do that. (Technically, that's not correct, as my education profs will tell you, but I'm simplifying.) Too many teachers think that if they teach to the test and they do well, the kids know all they need to know, which is definitely not true. But you aren't going to get very far teaching them how to think critically with a brain full of mush. Give me a kids full of facts who can just recite them, I can teach him to think critically. Give me an abstract thinker who knows no facts, and you probably have a child who has gotten a high grade point, but knows nothing and resents it when you tell them so.

Ideally, you need to teach all kinds of thinking simultaneously, but too many teachers leave out the hard stuff for the fun, abstract thinking. Those teachers do a disservice to their students, but it's a widespread practice, as it's all the rage in the ed schools. Standarized testing had to be implemented because the disservice became so widespread, it was obvious the kids were learning nothing.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

You're making a mistake assuming that standardized tests actually set a floor. I teach standardized testing for a living (maybe I'm part of the problem, but I do it for the monies), and can tell you without a doubt that most standardized tests can be beaten with almost no actual knowledge of the subject matter.

Standardized testing plus teach-to-the-test curricula create a lot of false positives, allowing ill-equipped students into programs they are not at all qualified to attend.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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IMO this seems to suppress critical thinking and abstract thinking skills that are so important to succeeding on a college level.

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You don't need to think critically or abstractly to succeed in college.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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You're making a mistake assuming that standardized tests actually set a floor. I teach standardized testing for a living (maybe I'm part of the problem, but I do it for the monies), and can tell you without a doubt that most standardized tests can be beaten with almost no actual knowledge of the subject matter.

Standardized testing plus teach-to-the-test curricula create a lot of false positives, allowing ill-equipped students into programs they are not at all qualified to attend.

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You are correct. I am assuming they set a floor, when I really mean they should set a floor. And although you say that the tests can be beaten with little to no actually knowledge of the subject matter, what does it say when students can't even pass these beatable tests?

From what I've read, having too many students pass the tests, or having some slip by that aren't qualified is generally not a widespread problem. Those few who do slip by, with help from people like you, are quickly weeded out by other means. At least I hope those guys who beat the MCAT are.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

Most people don't care about truly learning. The point of high school is to get into college and the point of college is to get a job. Anyway that gets your through college to the desired job is the way most take. This path often doesn't require in depth knowledge or reasoning. No everyone wants to learn in school, some just learn to play the game to get where they want.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

Greg,

Most HS in the USA are horrible. I'd wager to say that 90% or more HS in this country are lousy.

When I started at my university I was as indolent as can be, (50% attendance rate, may be highballing) yet I made 7 A's and 1 B+ my first year. Most people at my university came from low quality public schools, took less demanding schedules, and struggled.

Some of the many academic issues w/ schools these days:

-lack of quality teachers with a passion for teaching
-poor emphasis on math/science
-poor instruction on writing
-lack of challenging tests

Just take a look at most school's AP results. You'll have kids making A's in HS classes who struggle to get a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. Most high schools will take pride in having students merely pass AP exams, rather than actually doing well.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I think the problem is much more widespread and deep-rooted than standardized tests.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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I think the problem is much more widespread and deep-rooted than standardized tests.

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I agree. Reliance on and teaching to standardized tests is merely the symptom of a broken system.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

A few possibly relevant remarks:

1. When I was in college, I helped an AP calc class in a local high school. The teacher had problems solving some of the AP test problems (which, IMO, were straightforward). There's no way we can expect students to perform better than mediocre when some teachers are barely better than mediocre.

2. I had initially tried to help a different high school. The principal told me that the school had 6 students taking the exam. He was hoping to get one of them to score a 3. When I said that I expected that (with proper training) at least 1 of 6 would score a 5, and that at least 4/6 would pass (with a 3 or better), he told me that I was crazy and had horribly unrealistic expectations, that students at his school just don't do well on those exams. No one from that school ever called me or returned my calls to set up meeting times (which amounted to free tutoring).

3. I think that it is reasonable to use standardized test scores as a judge of a school. That being said, in mediocre to bad schools, this is horrible for better students. Many more resources are now devoted to the struggling students (because the school needs more students to pass the test for funding reasons). This completely screws good students who might be great students with a little extra attention. I think there's a ton of unrealized potential. (2) above is an example of this, though admittedly there was more going on at (2). In addition, it takes away a lot of freedom for teachers to be creative. I can recall many teachers that got through to me in different ways. Now things seem more cookie-cutter. Yes, you can still teach cookie-cutter material in interesting ways. Lots of people don't.

4. As far as problem-solving skills go, I see students' problem solving skills come out the most on the T/F sections on tests (I teach calculus at a university level). I've recently been asking students and friends if they did logic puzzles as kids. Almost without fail, those who had done them had developed better problem-solving/reasoning skills than those who hadn't. My students who had done them consistently scored better on T/F questions, and if they didn't score better on the exams as a whole, it was out of shear laziness. Given what I've seen, I think all kids should have to do logic puzzles in school. I also think that the logic/analysis sections of the GMAT and old GRE (before they replaced it for writing) would be a fantastic component of a test of college readiness. In fact, Sudoku would also be an excellent way to practice logic. Unfortunately, Sudoku is too hard for many students because it has numbers, numbers mean math, and math is too hard.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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Almost without fail, those who had done them had developed better problem-solving/reasoning skills than those who hadn't. My students who had done them consistently scored better on T/F questions, and if they didn't score better on the exams as a whole, it was out of shear laziness. Given what I've seen, I think all kids should have to do logic puzzles in school.

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Do you think it's possible that the same kids who did logic puzzles as kids had/have a better natural ability at solving them - and therefore enjoyed doing them more than those who struggled with them?

I'm not trying to make an excuse for kids who didn't do this as kids, just curious as to your opinion if this might be causation/correlation.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

That's a great point, and I've often wondered about it. To a point, it's probably quite a bit of each, ie. they were good, so they enjoyed the puzzles more, so they did the puzzles more, so they got better at them, etc.

To some extent, I think people are born with certain analytical abilities. But, I also think that the abilities you have (everybody has some level...) can be honed in childhood. I think that forcing kids to think critically, apply logic, exclude possibilites, and draw conclusions (both negative and positive) is just as important as (and will likely serve them better in life than) learning about the Civil War, spelling, and the history of the universe. (Obviously, having some basic knowledge about all these things is a crucial part of being an educated adult in the US today, so I'm not saying we shouldn't be teaching kids about Gettysburg or to, two, and too.)

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

I feel the worst about gifted students today. When I was in elementary school (in the 80s), we had the Academic Resource Center, which was a place whare twice a week they bussed a handful of us that scored in the top 2% on IQ tests. We did all kinds of logic puzzles, creative writing, basic computer programming (as early as 2nd grade) and research papers (first one was about 10 pages with cited sources was in 4th grade). My brother is 11 years younger than I am and was accepted to the same program, but by then the teachers were no longer required to be certified to teach gifted classes and the entire curriculum had been watered-down. It's really sad that all these schools will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to entertain kids with no cognitive abilities, but not work to develop those who are gifted and need more challenging/engaging material. As long as they can get enough [censored] to pass the state exam, who cares about the smart kids.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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Do you think it's possible that the same kids who did logic puzzles as kids had/have a better natural ability at solving them - and therefore enjoyed doing them more than those who struggled with them?

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Who knows. I would have never even been exposed to them had it not been for my ARC classes.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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I think the problem is much more widespread and deep-rooted than standardized tests.

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I agree. Reliance on and teaching to standardized tests is merely the symptom of a broken system.

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what standardized tests are you reffering to? All of them or specific ones?

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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I think the problem is much more widespread and deep-rooted than standardized tests.

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I agree. Reliance on and teaching to standardized tests is merely the symptom of a broken system.

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what standardized tests are you reffering to? All of them or specific ones?

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I'm not sure if this is directed at myself, misfire, or both of us. I am referring to standardized tests in general, but most specifically MCAS testing which is exclusive to Massachusetts public schools. Many teachers have altered their entire teaching curriculum to improve MCAS scores - as opposed to actually teaching useful information to students. MCAS preparation seemed much more pervasive in all classes than SATs prep or other standardized tests.

Regardless, I think there are other major factors that prevent students from being fully prepared for college, or life in general.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

Ok - because I actually have no problem with AP tests. Although they are standized tests, I feel the AP program in general is highly valuable

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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2. I had initially tried to help a different high school. The principal told me that the school had 6 students taking the exam. He was hoping to get one of them to score a 3. When I said that I expected that (with proper training) at least 1 of 6 would score a 5, and that at least 4/6 would pass (with a 3 or better), he told me that I was crazy and had horribly unrealistic expectations, that students at his school just don't do well on those exams. No one from that school ever called me or returned my calls to set up meeting times (which amounted to free tutoring).


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That is pretty damn sad.

If I recall correctly, in my HS AP Physics B class, I think we had about:

-14-16 5's
-3-4 4's
-1-2 3's

And no 2's (nobody in the history of the program ever got a 2 or 1)

The school achieved these results due to the efforts of a highly dedicated & enthusiastic teacher.

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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If I recall correctly, in my HS AP Physics B class, I think we had about:

-14-16 5's
-3-4 4's
-1-2 3's

And no 2's (nobody in the history of the program ever got a 2 or 1)

The school achieved these results due to the efforts of a highly dedicated & enthusiastic teacher.

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The school to which I referred above was urban, underfunded, and in a poor neighborhood. Moreover, the city's school system as a whole is in terrible shape. They got passing AP Calc scores every few years. It had a great football team though...

Re: NY Times article about lack of readiness for college
 

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I think the problem is much more widespread and deep-rooted than standardized tests.

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I agree. Reliance on and teaching to standardized tests is merely the symptom of a broken system.

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what standardized tests are you reffering to? All of them or specific ones?

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I was referring mostly to tests used for state/federal funding, graduation, and/or college admission. My father teaches high school, and is really upset at the pressure to teach to the tests so the school can meet the NCLB requirements.